Lying vs Murder (was:Re: On lying and cheating/ Killing DD)

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 165475

:: Mike, putting on his horns, affixing his pointed tail and 
:: grabbing his pitchfork in preparation to play Devil's Advocate 

> Betsy Hp:
> <snipping demonstrably, the DA does nothing by half measures>
> 
> To reach a conclusion let's contemplate the following three 
> questions:
> 
> (1)  What good is gained?
> Harry's lie causes Slughorn to think Harry is a potions genius.  
> But the Order doesn't benefit from that.  Slughorn already liked 
> Harry and the fight against Voldemort is not helped by Harry 
> *appearing* to be a potions genius.

DA:
But doesn't Harry's potion genius rep cause Slughorn to make the 
connection between Harry and Lily? Doesn't this later allow Harry to 
play off the supposed connection when he's trying to worm that memory 
out of Slughorn?

> Victim, ah I mean Betsy:
> By killing Dumbledore, DDM!Snape sets himself up as totally loyal 
> to Voldemort.  He has earned Voldemort's trust and is in a better 
> position to help bring Voldemort down.

DA:
Of course this assumes Snape isn't either ESE or OFH. But wouldn't 
not taking the UV and therefore having Dumbledore around be more 
valuable to the Order than getting Snape in tight with LV? Besides, 
how much tighter does Snape have to get? Spinner's End spun a scene 
wherein Snape is already closer to LV than even Bella, if you are to 
believe the Black sisters presentation of the situation at that time.

How does killing Dumbledore, even on DD's orders, set up the Order 
better than having a live Dumbledore? And of how much use to the 
Order or Harry is a Snape who is so thoroughly mistrusted now?

> Answer: Good is not gained by Harry's lie.  Good is gained by DDM!
> Snape's murder. 

DA: Hah!

  
> Grist for the mill, ahh ... I mean Betsy again:
> (2)  Who, if anyone, benefits?
> Harry's actions do not benefit Harry since his lie prevents him 
> from actually learning potions.  Harry has been morally compromised 
> because he is lying.  The note about the Bezoar saves Ron's life, 
> but  that was not dependent on Harry lying about his potion 
> knowledge.

DA:
No, but using the book for the Bezoar trick (which as everyone has 
said, Harry did to perpetuate his "potions genius" rep) caused 
Slughorn to have that Bezoar in his personal potions kit. That same 
Bezoar was the one that Harry shoves down Ron's throat, iirc. I may 
be wrong about this, maybe Sluggy always has a Beezer with him. But 
even if that's true, how did Harry know that? Or did Harry see Sluggy 
put the classroom Buzzer into his kit off-camera. <on second thought, 
the DA is never wrong > 

It was also at this point of the book that Harry was, for the first 
time that I see, going to try to exploit his rep to get the memory 
out of Slughorn. Does anyone have an example before this wherein 
Harry even thinks this rep is a good thing, much less use it to any 
advantage? Hmmmm?

> Sacrificial Lamb, oops, I mean Betsy again:
> DDM!Snape's actions benefit the Order by giving them a better 
> placed spy.  But at the same time they morally compromise DDM!Snape 
> because he has killed.

DA:
I hate to sound redundant < he says sneeringly > but exactly how much 
closer to LV can Snape get? And how do you know Snape hasn't killed 
in the past, not counting the obvious aiding and abetting on the 
Potter murders? What's another notch in your soul amongst friends?

> 
> Answer: Harry's actions benefit no one.  DDM!Snape's actions do not 
> benefit DDM!Snape but they do benefit the Order.

DA: Pshaw I say, pshaw


> Reeling Opponent, well it's gotta be Betsy:
> (3)  Was the action thought out?
> Harry doesn't think about what he is doing. He uses the Prince's 
> knowledge and passes it off as his own because it was made easy for 
> him to do so.

DA:
Well he's done nothing wrong by using the Prince's notes, in my book. 
<of course, in my book Horcruxes are just fine and dandy, so take 
that with a grain of salt and a shaker of pepper -- keepin it hot>
But how fair is it to condemn Harry for accepting accolades for 
potions genius if at the same time you are going to say he isn't 
really thinking about it? If he is deliberately claiming the Prince's 
ideas as his own, he has to have thought about it. Conversely, if he 
isn't thinking about it then he also isn't really actively taking 
credit for his new rep. Are you now going to say it was Harry's fault 
for getting a rep that he didn't pursue but was instead thrust upon 
him by Slughorn? That seems to make it Harry's fault before the fact.

> About to receive her knockout blow Betsy: <DA shows no mercy <eg>
> DDM!Snape has contemplated the costs and benefits of committing 
> murder to further the Order's cause.  He has discussed same with 
> Dumbledore himself.

DA:
Hah! How do you *know* he's discussed this with DD? That argument in 
the forest and Hagrid's recounting of it are hardly conclusive. We 
have *No* idea if DDM!Snape or any other flavor Snape ever broached 
the subject of killing Dumbledore with Dumbledore. For all we know 
the decision to kill Dumbledore happened while we were watching it, 
on-stage on the tower. This may speak for a quick on the uptake Snape 
rather than a well thought out, this is what I'm going to do Snape.

Oh and of course, I must mention that Snape backed himself into 
the corner and *had* to kill DD because of the Vow. IOW, even DDM!
Snape screwed up way back in the beginning, and whether or not 
killing DD sets him up better for the Order, he is undoubtedly saving 
his own neck by killing DD. He may have contemplated that, but that 
hardly gives him points in my book. <wait ... that does give him 
points in my book, and I get a piece of his soul too. Yesss>

> 
> Answer: Harry is acting thoughtlessly.  DDM!Snape is acting 
> thoughtfully.

DA: Raises arm triumphantly, having dealt knockout blow. Glowers down 
at fallen opponent. DAs are not graceful winners.

> Not sure who this is, Betsy's unconscious:
> Conclusion:
> While Harry is acting in a selfish and thoughtless manner to the 
> benefit of no one, Snape is acting in a self-sacrificing, 
> thoughtful manner with benefit to good.  So in this specific case, 
> lying is worse than murder. <g>

DA: Sorry, but you have a lot of questions to answer before you get 
to make these claims, whoever you are. 

> Obviously, Betsy's second:
> Seriously, I did this as a sort of ethical / philosophical   
> exercise. And of course I ignored the fact that Harry's lie only 
> hurts himself (I'm relying on the fact that the NEWT will keep 
> Harry from becoming an Auror if he really isn't qualified) and 
> Snape's actions (if he *did* kill Dumbledore) hurt Dumbledore.
> 
> There is the complicating factor of Dumbledore's wishes that I sort 
> of brushed over.  But a big question is, did Dumbledore *want* 
> Snape to kill him.  And if so, does that factor in at all? 

DA:
Whoa, whoa, I'm not ready to get serious yet. <throws water on Betsy 
to revive her but still refuses to give her a hand up>

> Betsy <groggily, still mostly stunned>:
> And of course I totally ignored the torn soul thing.

DA: I didn't. MWAHAHAHAHA

> 
> Betsy Hp (guessing "no" since I'm not sure *I* even know what I'm 
> saying)

DA:
SEE, I told you I knocked her silly. Winner by TKO, Da Advocate!!

Mike:
You know I love you Betsy or I never would have used you as my foil.
Thanks for being a good sport. <ducking, in case a keyboard comes 
flying at my head>