Lying vs Murder (was:Re: On lying and cheating/ Killing DD)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 165507

> :: Mike, putting on his horns, affixing his pointed tail and
> :: grabbing his pitchfork in preparation to play Devil's Advocate 

Betsy Hp:
Not out (or is it down?) for the count yet...
 
> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip> 
> > (1)  What good is gained?
> > Harry's lie causes Slughorn to think Harry is a potions genius.  
> > But the Order doesn't benefit from that.
> > <snip>

> >>DA aka Mike:
> But doesn't Harry's potion genius rep cause Slughorn to make the 
> connection between Harry and Lily?
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
No.  As Carol pointed out, Slughorn was won over by Harry's gorgeous 
green eyes (just like his mom's!).  Slughorn was well under Harry's 
spell by the time Potions class started.  Harry's false knowledge 
gained him nothing there.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > By killing Dumbledore, DDM!Snape sets himself up as totally loyal 
> > to Voldemort.  He has earned Voldemort's trust and is in a better 
> > position to help bring Voldemort down.

> >>DA aka Mike:
> Of course this assumes Snape isn't either ESE or OFH.

Betsy Hp:
Of course it does! This whole shaky structure depends absolutely on 
Snape being full on DDM.  Any other flavor of Snape and the whole 
thing falls completely apart.  Which means the assumption that 
Snape's actions on the Tower are on Dumbledore's orders and with 
Dumbledore's blessing is a given throughout. <g>

> >>DA aka Mike:
> Besides, how much tighter does Snape have to get? Spinner's End     
> spun a scene wherein Snape is already closer to LV than even Bella, 
> if you are to believe the Black sisters presentation of the         
> situation at that time.
> How does killing Dumbledore, even on DD's orders, set up the Order 
> better than having a live Dumbledore? And of how much use to the 
> Order or Harry is a Snape who is so thoroughly mistrusted now?

Betsy Hp:
The easy answer is, take it up with Dumbledore. <g>  However I'd 
suggest that Bellatrix's campaign of distrust is working to a certain 
extent and there are questions about DDM!Snape's ultimate loyalty.  
Also, just because *Harry* is unaware of DDM!Snape having an Order 
contact doesn't mean one doesn't exist.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > Answer: Good is not gained by Harry's lie.  Good is gained by DDM!
> > Snape's murder. 

> >>DA aka Mike: Hah!

Betsy Hp:
I see you your "ha" and raise you an "*ah*ha".  We're still looking 
at a situation where DDM!Snape's actions gain something for the good 
guys, while Harry's actions gain them nothing.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > (2)  Who, if anyone, benefits?
> > <snip>
> > The note about the Bezoar saves Ron's life, but  that was not    
> > dependent on Harry lying about his potion knowledge.

> >>DA aka Mike:
> No, but using the book for the Bezoar trick (which as everyone has 
> said, Harry did to perpetuate his "potions genius" rep) caused 
> Slughorn to have that Bezoar in his personal potions kit.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I'll concede that.  But it wasn't something Harry planned for.  IOWs, 
it was luck not forethought. (This will be important further down.)

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip>
> > But at the same time they morally compromise DDM!Snape 
> > because he has killed.

> >>DA aka Mike:
> <snip>
> And how do you know Snape hasn't killed in the past, not counting   
> the obvious aiding and abetting on the Potter murders? What's       
> another notch in your soul amongst friends?

Betsy Hp:
Part of the DDM!Snape assumption.  There's canon that supports non-
killer Snape, though being Snape, it's by no means definitive.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > Answer: Harry's actions benefit no one.  DDM!Snape's actions do   
> > not benefit DDM!Snape but they do benefit the Order.

> >>DA aka Mike: Pshaw I say, pshaw

Betsy Hp:
I'll give you the bezoar saving Ron's life.  So Ron benefits from 
Harry's lie.  However, I don't think you fully support your "pshaw" 
of the consequences of DDM!Snape's actions.  So the contention that 
DDM!Snape's actions benefit the Order still stands. 

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > (3)  Was the action thought out?
> > Harry doesn't think about what he is doing. He uses the Prince's 
> > knowledge and passes it off as his own because it was made easy   
> > for him to do so.

> >>DA aka Mike:
> <snip>
> But how fair is it to condemn Harry for accepting accolades for 
> potions genius if at the same time you are going to say he isn't 
> really thinking about it?
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Incredibly, outrageously, and ridiculously fair. <g>  Harry trips and 
falls into his false reputation of being a potions genius.  He hasn't 
thought about and weighed the costs and benefits, he merely assumes 
that being known as smart is kind of nice.  So not only is Harry 
morally compromising himself, he's doing so for no apparent reason.  
And it's fair to judge Harry for both the lie and the sloppy thinking 
that lead to the lie.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > DDM!Snape has contemplated the costs and benefits of committing 
> > murder to further the Order's cause.  He has discussed same with 
> > Dumbledore himself.

> DA aka Mike:
> Hah! How do you *know* he's discussed this with DD? That argument   
> in the forest and Hagrid's recounting of it are hardly conclusive.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Nothing about Snape is conclusive. <g>  However, since we're going 
with DDM!Snape here we must assume full out loyalty with Dumbledore.  
Which means Dumbledore knows about the Vow, and which means 
discussions were had on how to handle it.  And of course DDM!Snape 
would be horrified at the thought of murdering his mentor. 

> >>DA aka Mike:
> Oh and of course, I must mention that Snape backed himself into 
> the corner and *had* to kill DD because of the Vow.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
DDM!Snape could have, and being DDM would have preferred to, kill 
himself.  Jump off the Tower, and the Vow is no longer an issue.  So 
DDM!Snape isn't *forced* into a decision; he makes his decision 
because it benefits the greater good.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > Conclusion:
> > While Harry is acting in a selfish and thoughtless manner to the 
> > benefit of no one, Snape is acting in a self-sacrificing, 
> > thoughtful manner with benefit to good.  So in this specific     
> > case, lying is worse than murder. <g>

> >>DA aka Mike: 
> Sorry, but you have a lot of questions to answer before you get 
> to make these claims, whoever you are. 

Betsy Hp:
The only fly you manged to flick into my iced tea is that Ron does 
benefit from Harry's lie.  But because Harry doesn't lie *in order 
to* save Ron's life, it's an unintended consequence that gives little 
commendation to Harry.

There's still nothing to suggest that Harry lied for well thought out 
reasons.  There's nothing to suggest that Harry's lie helped further 
the cause of good against evil.  But on the other hand, DDM!Snape is 
still killing with for a reasoned and beneficial purpose.

So the conclusion remains:  Harry's lie is worse than DDM!Snape's 
murder.

Betsy Hp (pointing out to Mike that he hit a *girl*,  a girl wearing 
*glasses*, no less. <eg>)