Lying vs Murder (was:Re: On lying and cheating/ Killing DD)

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 165518

>
> > :: Mike, putting on his horns, affixing his pointed tail and
> > :: grabbing his pitchfork in preparation to play Devil's Advocate 
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Not out (or is it down?) for the count yet...

Mike:
<taking off DA garb, pffeww, that stuff is hot> 
> 
> > >>DA aka Mike:
> > But doesn't Harry's potion genius rep cause Slughorn to make the 
> > connection between Harry and Lily? Doesn't this later allow Harry 
> > to play off the supposed connection when he's trying to worm that 
> > memory out of Slughorn?

> 
> Betsy Hp:
> No.  As Carol pointed out, Slughorn was won over by Harry's 
> gorgeous green eyes (just like his mom's!).  Slughorn was well 
> under Harry's spell by the time Potions class started.  Harry's 
> false knowledge gained him nothing there.

Mike:
Playing the Advocate can cloud your meaning. What I meant was that 
this supposed connection re potions causes *Harry* to realize how 
much Slughorn loved Lily. I.E. it allowed Harry to figure out to use 
his mom as the leverage point with Slughorn. He has long since 
figured out that sluggy wants to "collect" him, hell DD told him as 
much walking away from Sluggy's house.

Going back to when they first met now. Doesn't *everybody* tell Harry 
he has his mom's eyes? So that doesn't make Sluggy stand out. And 
after Harry and DD leave Sluggy's, Harry srill isn't convinced that 
Sluggy isn't prejudiced against Muggleborns like Lily. It's only 
after many months of Sluggy bringing up Lily when referencing Harry's 
potion genius, that Harry realizes *that's* the card to play After 
the Burial. This is where Harry's potions rep is used to advance his 
cause. And had he not got the potions rep, Sluggy wouldn't have been 
constantly comparing him to his mom. It's not a matter of Sluggy 
being won over, it's a matter of Harry learning of Sluggy's soft spot 
for Lily. That eye comparison is old news for Harry, that won't do it.


> 
> Betsy Hp:
> The easy answer is, take it up with Dumbledore. <g>  

Mike:
You could have stopped here with Dumbledore's "Master Plan". I don't 
really buy that stuff the DA was spewing re Snape. <eg>


> 
> Betsy Hp:
> I see you your "ha" and raise you an "*ah*ha".  We're still looking 
> at a situation where DDM!Snape's actions gain something for the 
> good guys, while Harry's actions gain them nothing.

Mike:
Not quite, I still say Harry gained something for the cause by 
extracting the memory from Slughorn. And I'm not sure Harry would 
have made the whole Lily connection without his potions rep, Felix 
notwithstanding. (which is moot, since without the book Harry doesn't 
win it and we aren't having this discussion>


> 
> > > Betsy Hp:
> > > (2)  Who, if anyone, benefits?
> > > <snip>
> > > The note about the Bezoar saves Ron's life, but  that was    
> > > not dependent on Harry lying about his potion knowledge.
> 
> > DA aka Mike:
> > No, but using the book for the Bezoar trick (which as everyone 
> > has said, Harry did to perpetuate his "potions genius" rep) 
> > caused Slughorn to have that Bezoar in his personal potions kit.
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> I'll concede that.  But it wasn't something Harry planned for. 

Mike:
Tweeeet, Foul, number 42, Miss Betsy. The questin was "Who 
benefits?", not whether it was planned. That's later in the program. 
I get two free throws. And my point still stands. Ron benefits, far 
more than Harry does by getting a rep he doesn't care that much for.



> Betsy Hp:
> Part of the DDM!Snape assumption.  There's canon that supports non-
> killer Snape, though being Snape, it's by no means definitive.

Mike:
Not arguing against it, but are you saying the overall feeling of 
Snape's story, or do you have something more specific in mind?



> Betsy Hp:
> I'll give you the bezoar saving Ron's life.  So Ron benefits from 
> Harry's lie.  However, I don't think you fully support your "pshaw" 
> of the consequences of DDM!Snape's actions.  So the contention that 
> DDM!Snape's actions benefit the Order still stands. 

Mike:
Yup, We each get a point here, though I could be gracious and say 
that you got two points.... naah! :P


 
> Betsy Hp:
> Incredibly, outrageously, and ridiculously fair. <g>  Harry trips 
> and falls into his false reputation of being a potions genius.  He 
> hasn't thought about and weighed the costs and benefits, he merely 
> assumes that being known as smart is kind of nice. <quick snip>
 
Mike:
I actually, slightly disagree that Harry thinks it's nice. AFAIK, 
none of the other kids are giving Harry accolades for his potions 
genius, only Slughorn. And I never got the feeling that Harry was all 
that comfortable with Slughorn's fawning.

> Betsy Hp continues:
> So not only is Harry morally compromising himself, he's doing so 
> for no apparent reason. And it's fair to judge Harry for both the 
> lie and the sloppy thinking that lead to the lie.

Mike:
<Warning: Ima gonna get expansive here>
I do acknowledge and agree with you, Carol, Magpie, et al that in the 
narrower scheme of things, Harry is being dishonest accepting 
accolades for his unearned rep as Potion King. I do not agree with 
whomever may still be left that thinks Harry was Cheating <Steve's 
capital "C">, and not really convinced on the small "c" cheating.

But, let's talk about that rep. Which characters are crediting Harry 
with being a potions genius? Certainly not Ron and Hermione. Both of 
them know about the Prince and give him all the credit. Hell, Ron 
even says "He was a genius, the Prince." And Hermione told Harry that 
he "got a reputation for Potions brilliance you don't deserve."

We aren't really shown any of the other classmate's reactions to 
Harry other than Draco's sneering after the Felix win, which doesn't 
count on many levels, imo. So who's left? Slughorn, and any others 
within his earshot that care and that don't discount his fawning 
tendencies (which probably excludes the entire staff). 

And haven't you and Carol just told me that Slughorn was predisposed 
to this mode? Didn't Harry 'just have to exist' to have Slughorn 
trying to get Harry into his camp? Therefore, wouldn't it be 
pointless for Harry to try to talk Slughorn down, get him to stop 
that fawning? 

IOW, I'm not convinced that anyone besides Sluggy has annointed Harry 
with oil or peeling grapes for him. <g> Harry neither seeks nor 
really wants this potions rep with Slughorn, therefore I don't see it 
as something that Harry should be held accountable for. Slughorn 
would have just focused on something else, there was always going to 
be something with Slughorn. Who knows what Slughorn would have 
picked, or whether Harry would have deserved that something either.

More and more I'm convinced that the proper perspective is the Grand 
Scheme of things that Valky is espousing, and that Steve and Geoff 
(and myself) have added onto. Harry's focus with Dumbledore and his 
lesson's is so far beyond his desire for his potion's rep that it 
doesn't register as a concern. So in this respect, I'm agreeing with 
Alla, Harry doesn't want to expend the effort on correcting Slughorn 
with so little chance that it would make any difference. This whole 
potions rep doesn't register on Harry's radar, right up until the 
point where he decides to exploit it to get the memory. That makes 
the only time Harry uses it is for an advancing the cause purpose.
 

<snipping the whole DDM!Snape with the Vow did share with DD, which I 
am firmly in the camp of, regardles of what the DA said>

 
> Betsy Hp:
> The only fly you manged to flick into my iced tea is that Ron does 
> benefit from Harry's lie.  But because Harry doesn't lie *in order 
> to* save Ron's life, it's an unintended consequence that gives 
> little commendation to Harry.

Mike:
Ahh, but I did get that fly in there which is the purpose of the DA 
<beg> Made you throw out that glass and get a new one. 

Oh and I agree, totally unintended.

 
> Betsy Hp (pointing out to Mike that he hit a *girl*,  a girl 
> wearing *glasses*, no less. <eg>)

Mike, pleading that I was Imperiused <I don't know why, but I love 
that word. It just sounds so cool>