Lying and Cheating & Potions!Genius....

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 165528



Magpie:
I think anyone who's been a student knows that usually the implied
point of
the lesson is indeed the lesson. Kids have been trying to get away
with "but
what does it matter how I got the answer when I got it right!" for years.
The point being that you're supposed to be learning what you're being
taught
in class today, not do it the way you learned in sixth grade. Which is,
remember, what Harry is doing. 

Valky:
This is exactly what I am addressing in my position. These are Potions
lessons, ordinary everyday potions lessons...... 

--Ch 4 HBP--
 'But while I was at the Dursley's' interrupted Harry, his voice
growing stronger, 'I realised a can't shut myself away - or crack up.
Sirius wouldn't have wanted that, would he? And anyway, life's too
short... look at Madam Bones, look at Emmeline Vance... it could be me
next, couldn't it? But if it is,' he said fiercely, now looking
straight into Dumbledore's blue eyes, gleaming in the wand light,
"I'll make sure I take as many Death Eaters with me a I can, and
Voldemort too if I can manage it.'

-----------

.... this is what Harry is trying to accomplish, this is what's on his
mind. Not cracking up, walking as calmly and unalarmingly in the
spotlight as he can, all the while readying himself for the inevitable
day, getting ready to go down in the biggest blaze of glory he can
make with his meagre but determined abilities.


What a student is *supposed* to be doing in a potions lesson,is a
thing dependent on the purpose for being there. And my position is
that the above written by Magpie and other points ostensibly aiming
from the same angle are exclusive to the purpose of professing
specialisation in the academic field and to the pursuit of the
consequent accolades. And I repeat, that is not even Harry Potters life. 
What he is "supposed" to be doing to achieve that end, is barely
relevant, and utterly irrelevant in the pure context of a final battle
to the death. 

I see the relevance in terms of Harry executing poor judgement and
making mistakes by shrugging off the growing cloud of lies he began to
live in that landed him in a place where he as good as accidentally
murdered a fellow student, but for Snape's intervention. But I don't
see willful cheating, and there is no significantly relevant context
for 'cheating' anyway. 





Magpie:
Bezoars aren't a new thing. The practical
solution that Harry learned that day was the one the rest of the class
learned years before.

Valky:
Clearly not well enough. ;)



Magpie:
How does it make it an insult to Harry to not think the reputation that
Slughorn assigns him in sixth year, that of a natural Potions whiz who
does
better in class using the exact same recipe as everyone else because he's
just got some personal excellence in Potions inherited from his mother and
so changes recipes based on his own insticts--is untrue?


Valky:
It doesn't. 

Calling it choosing easy over right because Harry taking a stand for
the cause of academic honesty in his sixth year by coming forward to
tell the world he has access to some geniuses secretly made notes,
because that is the pinnacle of ethical conduct in the context of his
life, IMO does. 

Magpie:
If it's so valuable against Voldemort why isn't he experimenting
outside of
class instead of things he'd rather be doing? Instead he chooses to
try out
these amazing ideas only when it's assigned to him in class and he
wants to
do well on the assignment

Valky:
We're told in Chapter 11 that he's using the notes all the time in
Potions lessons, for everything. 
The way I read it is that all Harry consciously notes here is that the
text margins are valuable, they are helping to explain a magical
subject to him in a language and tone which feels he can understand
and has a positive dynamic with. He realises that they have value and
are superior to the notes that he is being asked to use, whether that
helps him with Voldemort remains to be seen, but that is not a reason
to reject the opportunity to use what clearly appears to be superior
magical information.  

He does experiment outside of class that we are aware of, but in canon
this is only with the spells. 

 
Magpie:
He doesn't seem to be rushing things at all, to me. He seems to spend the
year at a fairly relaxed place, studying the Prince's book because it
interests him (mostly for the spells and the Prince as a made-up
person) not
because he's desperately trying to gain skills for Voldemort. It's a handy
excuse to make when Hermione's on his back, but everything you mention
here
(that he wants to test out all this under the supervision of a teacher and
learn as much stuff as he can before he meets Voldemort) doesn't sound
like
HBP!Harry at all.


Valky:
I Beg your pardon, Magpie, I realised my language was loaded after I
post so I'll take this opportunity to correct myself. 

I don't mean to say that Harry thought out the idea to test the
Potions under supervision. Again I believe he is simply _taking an
opportunity_ that exists thanks to Slughorns Rose Coloured Glasses
attitude. It is one of his wiser moves nonetheless, as opposed to
testing the Sectumsempra out in a private bathroom wizard duel.




Steve:
So, it is hard to say Harry cheated on something that is essentially
meaningless.

Magpie:
I'm sure all the teachers on the list appreciate your putting them in 
their place there.:-)

 

Valky:
This reminds me of debate that raged hot** pre-HBP about Snape
dropping Harry's potion in OOtP and thereby avoiding giving him the
grade that he *did* deserve - as inconsequential vs unfair :


**mea culpa on the raging hot :P 



In a message dated 7/31/03 9:17:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
bibphile at ... writes:
> I was under the impression (though I admit that I don't know why)
> that only O.W.L.s counted fifth year. Basically if you pass the
> test you pass even if you have straight zeros and if you fail the
> test you fail even if you have straight 100's.

That's what I thought too - at least, that's what I remember being 
told by people who understand the system. It's not Snape's grading at 
all at this point...it doesn't even matter what Harry gets on the 
potions from Snape, all that matters is what the examiners give him on
his OWL.



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/74576