[HPforGrownups] Lying and Cheating & Potions!Genius....

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 165519

> Magpie:
> I don't think it is "drawing the line." I think it's describing what
> Harry is doing. If you mean that Harry hides the book after
> Sectumsempra in order to protect his reputation, I never said that
> he did.
>
>
> Valky:
> Actually I meant hiding the book as in changing the covers so that
> Slughorn wouldn't know he was keeping the old book, and then later not
> correcting Slughorn when he raves about Harry's performance by
> saying... "Well you see sir, The text book that you gave me is full of
> interesting secrets, notes and tricks of the trade and I swapped the
> covers so you wouldn't know I still had it."

Magpie:
Harry changes the covers to keep the book he prefers because it's got better 
stuff in it. He doesn't correct Slughorn's raving about his performance 
because it's easier not to do so. In either case, of course, he could have 
been honest or tried to be, and in both cases he chooses not to be, but I 
think for slightly different reasons. He doesn't *have to* lie or else lose 
his book--later on when he's far more afraid of losing the book he stops 
using it in class. Earlier, Harry wants to have it both ways. Have a better 
time in class *and* not have anyone find out he's got a valuable book.

Valky:
>
> Why he hides these secrets is because he'd lose the only book that
> he's ever been interested in learning from. The only thing he feels he
> is really able to learn anything from beside Dumbledore, and maybe
> Hermione (who he notes is so busy studying for her own NEWTs that
> she's not even able to be the fount that she used to be), in this
> year.  He can't understand McGonagall any more, Snape is teaching the
> subject Harry usually loves the most so that's basically ruined for
> him, Slughorn's Potions methods are ultimately the inferior ones,
> profoundly demonstrated by the notes in the Snape's old text; It *is*
> in Harry's mind that this book is his opportunity to get better at
> magic in a situation otherwise not conducive to that purpose at all.

Magpie:
Harry does not have to do extra well in class and then pretend he's just 
kind of brilliant that way in order to keep the book. At the point in the 
story when Harry is truly worried about the book being taken away because 
he's been found out, he stops using it in class and is fine with that.

> Magpie:
> I think he hides the book so that Snape won't take it away.
> Once he hides the book he no longer uses it in class. Having the
> book was never dependent on faking his reputation in Potions or
> covering it up.
>
>
> Valky:
> No, that's true, but using the book in class isn't necessarily
> dependent on Harry putting no effort into learning from it, as I
> mentioned before. It does follow that he would have missed Golpalotts
> law by learning from the HBP text notes instead of other texts,
> because the HBP text has no notes on Golpalott. It doesn't follow that
> not knowing Golpalotts law means he isn't attempting to learn and
> understand what he *is* reading in the HBP text.

Magpie:
I don't think I suggested that his not knowing Golpallotts law meant he 
wasn't trying to learn anything from the HBP--he is learning lots of spells. 
We are in his head in class and he's just following directions. He's not 
asking himself why a counter-clockwise stir on the third stir makes a 
difference. He's learning a better recipe if he retains it by heart. But 
that still doesn't remove the same little bit of dishonesty that's always 
been there, because the HBP's just so constantly has great results and it's 
so much easier to go along with Slughorn's thinking it's due to Harry's 
natural genius at Potions than the alternatives.

Valky:
> To some degree, it's plausible that his reputation isn't entirely
> faked, using the book, notes included, as his study text and in class,
> isn't dependent on him totally faking the knowledge and ability he
> arrives at through it.

Magpie:
I think if Harry was telling himself that he'd be lying to himself. He's got 
a better book than everyone else and when he follows the directions just as 
everyone else follows theirs he gets better results. The suggestion that he 
gets these results because he's better at the subject than the other 
students, or he's inherited it from his mother, or that he has any idea why 
his own methods work better than theirs do beyond "because the Prince knows 
this stuff" is untrue as far as I can see. If Harry started to convince 
himself that it wasn't really a fake because maybe he really does just 
follow directions like "stir three times counterclockwise" better than other 
people, I'd be more worried about his character than I am now. I'd think: 
time for a reality check, Harry.

> Magpie:
> When push came to shove he chose protecting the
> book over doing better than everyone else in class. Harry's never
> forced to accept specific praise he himself knows is undeserved.
> I have acknowledged that Harry has an intent to learn from the book.
>
> Valky:
> Well yes, he can re-replace the text book and have a second one to use
> in class or ignore the notes.. which just seems to defeat the purpose
> of having them. He chooses to practice the hints and study the tips
> and techniques in Snape's notes. And who knows anyone of those hints
> or tips could be just the thing to know when he is up against
> Voldemort. I don't think it's quite right or fair to expect from Harry
> actions which bear out that he has the luxury of time and an unimpeded
> focus in which to progress his knowledge like an average student, that
> is someone elses life, not his.

Magpie:
If it's so valuable against Voldemort why isn't he experimenting outside of 
class instead of things he'd rather be doing? Instead he chooses to try out 
these amazing ideas only when it's assigned to him in class and he wants to 
do well on the assignment (and when he can't do the assignment at all he's 
not worried about it--he's satisfied that his joke answer goes over well), 
and not make any Potions that we see on his own.

I completely understand why Harry would prefer to do this rather than use a 
regular textbook in class to protect the book and study on his own, but it 
also points to his priorities--and I'm not seeing the same priorities you 
are. If he's supposed to be driving himself this way I need to see it and 
it's not there. In fact, there is a character driving himself the way you're 
describing and he makes a rather stark contrast to Harry when I read it.

Valky:
> The way I see it is that Harry is rushing things, trying to squeeze
> everything he can out of a short moment between now and his ultimate
> showdown with Voldemort, testing the HBP's Potions notes under the
> supervision of a competent teacher is actually one of his wiser
> decisions in doing that.

Magpie:
He doesn't seem to be rushing things at all, to me. He seems to spend the 
year at a fairly relaxed place, studying the Prince's book because it 
interests him (mostly for the spells and the Prince as a made-up person) not 
because he's desperately trying to gain skills for Voldemort. It's a handy 
excuse to make when Hermione's on his back, but everything you mention here 
(that he wants to test out all this under the supervision of a teacher and 
learn as much stuff as he can before he meets Voldemort) doesn't sound like 
HBP!Harry at all.

Valky:
Although he's not forced to accept the
> reputation, allowing it to be makes for expedient progress, and that's
> what matters to him doesn't it.

Magpie:
I think it makes for less hassle than telling the truth, actually, more than 
expedient progress. If he needs to know this so much and is trying to 
squeeze out every second he can to try out these Potions under Slughorn's 
watchful eye, why doesn't he tell Slughorn the truth or get him to help him 
outside of class as well with some adjusted story? It's not like Slugrhon's 
not dying to do it or seems like he'd take the book away from Harry. It's 
Snape he more fears will take it away. Harry's way seems to get him less 
practice in Potions and less benefit from Slughorn in favor of less hassle 
all around in class and a book he's interested in to study outside of class.

Valky:
It's pretty obvious he does not regard
> a reputation for brilliance even nearly as highly as the people around
> him do. Take Dumbledore's Army for an example; when his list of
> triumphs was stated to him he blushed furiously and took pains to
> point out to the group that a reputation didn't represent a better
> wizard, when it came to the crunch he had scraped by on his gut
> instinct and some luck. Not really aware that had given him such a
> reputation for Dark Arts defense, he was simply shocked to learn that
> people had assumed as much from his accomplishments.

Magpie:
Not sure how this relates. Harry certainly knows the kind of reputation he's 
giving himself with Slughorn and rather than explain the truth it's easier 
to just suffer the embarassment. A different kind of embarassment, of 
course, because this time the guy's wrong in a different way than Harry 
thinks other people have been wrong.

> Valky:
> But there definitely is some of the latter alternative in the dynamic
> nonetheless because Harry has offered to share the text notes with
> Hermione, she might actually have gotten even more out of them than
> Harry could, but she refused on the grounds of her suspicions about
> the book's nature.

Magpie:
Yup. Her loss.

> Magpie:
> Harry still knows that he's lying by ommission whenever Slughorn
> says exactly what Harry is doing and what Harry is demonstrating.
> And that's not some huge crime that's worse than murder. But I don't
> understand why it's being denied as if it's insulting to Harry crazy
> talk either. That's what I don't get.
>
>
> Valky:
> Some of it *is* insulting to Harry, crazy talk. :P As I mentioned above.
>
> It gets ridiculous when real life scenarios of plagarism and cheating
> in a context of a fairly normal and not soon-to-be-over life are
> given. Or even in the context of comparing Snape's actions and
> motivations when he wrote the notes (which we don't even know) to
> Harry's actions and motivations in using them. Their lives could not
> have been more different. Snape was most likely plotting and planning
> a long life hopefully culminating in an Order of Merlin and other
> Warlock Council honours. Harry is trying to get good and get it fast
> in case tomorrow is the day Voldemort comes for him. Two different
> lives, two different contexts.

Magpie:
How does it make it an insult to Harry to not think the reputation that 
Slughorn assigns him in sixth year, that of a natural Potions whiz who does 
better in class using the exact same recipe as everyone else because he's 
just got some personal excellence in Potions inherited from his mother and 
so changes recipes based on his own insticts--is untrue? I'm also not sure 
what Snape's life has to do with it--it's not like we can just assume that 
if Harry didn't have Voldemort to worry about he'd be the one experimenting 
in the Potions lab (evidence suggests he'd probably be out on the Quidditch 
Pitch more often). To me, to be honest, I find it far worse to claim Harry 
is what Slughorn claims and deserves that praise than to say he doesn't. It 
makes me think of the Dursleys turning everything Dudders does into 
something good.

Steve:
'Golpalotts Method' was implied in the potions lesson, but it wasn't stated 
(as far as I remember). True Harry did not apply 'Golpalotts Method', but he 
did find a fast and practical solution to a very real and likely problem. 
And as far as I'm concerned, he learned that particular lesson better than 
any of the other students, because Harry taught himself, aided by the 
'Book', to find practical solutions to practical problems; not theoretical 
solutions to theoretical problems.

Magpie:
I think anyone who's been a student knows that usually the implied point of 
the lesson is indeed the lesson. Kids have been trying to get away with "but 
what does it matter how I got the answer when I got it right!" for years. 
The point being that you're supposed to be learning what you're being taught 
in class today, not do it the way you learned in sixth grade. Which is, 
remember, what Harry is doing. Bezoars aren't a new thing. The practical 
solution that Harry learned that day was the one the rest of the class 
learned years before. They tried to move on to learning a more complicated 
law. I think we can be pretty sure Snape would have taken points for any 
student answering with "cheek" instead of an antidote brewed according to 
what he was teaching.

Steve:
Regardless, how any student does in class is irrelvant.
The only thing that matters is how they do on their
independantly administered NEWT tests. Harry did poorly in Snape's class and 
well in the OWL exams. I don't see why Slughorn's class would be any 
different. Yes, there  is a lot of bragging and fawning by Slughorn over 
Harry's 'gift' for potions, but I suspect, Harry's well applied potions and 
his knowledge of how to apply universal  antidotes over individual antidotes 
would serve him well on his NEWT tests, and again, that is the only thing 
that
counts.

Magpie:
That's definitely true. But if that's all that matters can't Harry just be 
the kid who couldn't even begin to understand Galpallot's Law instead of the 
kid who won the gold star because he found the practical solution to the 
problem?

Steve:
So, it is hard to say Harry cheated on something that is essentially 
meaningless.

Magpie:
I'm sure all the teachers on the list appreciate your putting them in their 
place there.:-)

-m