Percy's fight (was DD's attitude)/On the trivial and the Profound/Lying & Cheati

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 165534

> Finwitch:
> 
> Yes - which is probably why Percy was in Gryffindor. And I think 
> Dumbledore was good in saying "Right vs. Easy" rather than "Right 
vs. 
> Wrong". You see, disobeying rules in order to save a life - a 
world - 
> is Right. Still, you can hardly say obeying rules is 'wrong', now 
can 
> you? Easy. Dumbledore must have known the Ministry would try 
something 
> like they really did do.
> 
> About Percy further-- the one *choice* I see him making, is when 
he had 
> that big arguement with his father. He chose between Work and 
Family, 
> and chose Work. It's a choice many do -- anytime the boss wants 
you to 
> stay for overwork in lesser, everyday terms -- now, which do you 
think 
> was the Right and which the Easy?
> 
> No wonder the Twins were upset with him about it -- they, running 
a 
> business themselves, do have experience of the excessive workload, 
yet 
> I'm sure they put family first. As do all the other Weasleys...

Magpie:
I don't think Percy was choosing work over family. He was angry 
about his father saying that he only got his promotion because he 
was a patsy and they wanted him to spy on Arthur (because of course 
Percy couldn't have earned his promotion) and Percy let out years of 
resentment he felt about his father's own attitude about his job, 
since his father had just revealed how little he thought of Percy's 
worth at the office. I don't think that fight had much to do with 
work vs. family at all. It mostly family, but he uses work to 
express it.

Magpie:
To me all the stuff about how Harry's learning stuff from the
> book or has bigger things to think about or isn't primarily
> interested in besting Hermione and Draco seems like some kind of
> distraction, because it's irrelevent, imo.
<SNIP>

Alla:

Oh, but see here I do disagree. How can it be irrelevant for me?
Harry keeps Slughorn's opinion of him, for sure. But it is very
relevant to me why he does that and here I agree with Valky and Geoff
and Mike, etc.

It is of utmost importance to me, I would say. I want to stress that
it does not, it does not make what Harry does right, but it
absolutely makes sense for me that Harry does wrong in something that
of secondary importance for him through HBP IMO.

Magpie:
It would make a difference to me too, in terms of Harry's character, 
of course. Every character must be judged and understood on his own 
terms and the Harry who is trying to put himself ahead in Potions 
would be a different person than the one in canon now (just as I 
think the Harry Valky is describing is a totally different person 
than the one I see in canon). Where it's irrelevent for me is that 
it doesn't turn something untrue into something true. 

To compare it to Snape, I think Snape killed DD with an AK. Now, if 
it does turn out that people are correct in that he didn't kill him 
for some reason, that changes that Snape didn't kill Dumbledore. If 
Snape is DDM it doesn't change that he killed Dumbledore. It changes 
his reasons for doing it, it changes the way we understand and judge 
him as a character, it changes the context. But the AK doesn't 
become not an AK because Snape is acting on DD's orders if he was.

Valky:
What a student is *supposed* to be doing in a potions lesson,is a
thing dependent on the purpose for being there. And my position is
that the above written by Magpie and other points ostensibly aiming
from the same angle are exclusive to the purpose of professing
specialisation in the academic field and to the pursuit of the
consequent accolades. And I repeat, that is not even Harry Potters 
life. What he is "supposed" to be doing to achieve that end, is 
barely relevant, and utterly irrelevant in the pure context of a 
final battle to the death.

Magpie:
Yes, but I'm really just still not buying your claims that Harry is 
approaching Potions class with this different idea of what 
he's "supposed" to be doing there, and so making his decisions based 
on these higher ideals. The fact that at certain times he says 
things about Voldemort simply does not translate into a Harry who is 
focused on preparing himself for that battle all year and making all 
his decisions based on what will get him the most skill and 
knowledge in all things the most quickly. Nor does his attitude 
towards Potions reflect it that I can see. He's not taking his 
schoolwork seriously in a different way than other students, he's 
taking it just as casually as he's done throughout the series. He's 
interested in the things that interest him, and less interested in 
the things that don't interest him.

It feels like there's a lot of having it both ways as well. Potions 
is totally unimportant so it doesn't matter if Harry takes the easy 
way, yet he's also not taking the easy way at all because learning 
stuff--which is the point of the class--is so important to him. 

Magpie:
Bezoars aren't a new thing. The practical
solution that Harry learned that day was the one the rest of the 
class learned years before.

Valky:
Clearly not well enough. ;)

Magpie:
Hmmm... See, if you're serious about that this is just the kind of 
thing I'm talking about. Harry is awarded points for "cheek" in that 
class because Slughorn and everyone else knows he's not tried to do 
the more difficult task. Slughorn winds up, iirc, by reminding Harry 
that in fact a bezoar will *not* always be the answer. That's also 
why there's a long moment where he stares at the bezoar and Harry 
isn't sure if he's going to yell at him. (It's also why Harry tells 
Ron they couldn't both hand in bezoars--it would look stupid, which 
it would not if that was the "right" answer.) 

The fact that the other students try to do the real assignment is 
not a sign that they don't remember that bezoars are an antidote to 
poisons (or have not had someone else tell them, as Harry did). It's 
one thing to laugh at Harry's cheeky trick and be glad he got away 
with it. It's another, imo, to try to pretend Harry really was 
showing how clever he is compared to the other students and taking 
the thing in a more serious way and that he really lives up to how 
Slughorn describes him afterwards. That's what reminds me of the 
Dursleys with Dudley. 

Magpie:
How does it make it an insult to Harry to not think the reputation 
that Slughorn assigns him in sixth year, that of a natural Potions 
whiz who does better in class using the exact same recipe as 
everyone else because he's just got some personal excellence in 
Potions inherited from his mother and so changes recipes based on 
his own insticts--is untrue?

Valky:
It doesn't.

Calling it choosing easy over right because Harry taking a stand for
the cause of academic honesty in his sixth year by coming forward to
tell the world he has access to some geniuses secretly made notes,
because that is the pinnacle of ethical conduct in the context of his
life, IMO does.

Magpie:
Well, to me it's just calling a spade a spade. Just as I said to 
Alla, I think you can be clear about what Harry's doing and still 
take into consideration the circumstances. Sometimes you do the easy 
thing for a good reason, and if you're doing that I don't see why 
you wouldn't be upfront about it. Of course, I also am not convinced 
Harry's lying about this particular thing is so important to the 
greater good, because his behavior doesn't, to me, follow logically 
from the priorities you claim he has, imo. 

Magpie:
If it's so valuable against Voldemort why isn't he experimenting
outside of class instead of things he'd rather be doing? Instead he 
chooses to try out these amazing ideas only when it's assigned to 
him in class and he wants to do well on the assignment

Valky:
We're told in Chapter 11 that he's using the notes all the time in
Potions lessons, for everything.The way I read it is that all Harry 
consciously notes here is that the text margins are valuable, they 
are helping to explain a magical subject to him in a language and 
tone which feels he can understand and has a positive dynamic with. 
He realises that they have value and are superior to the notes that 
he is being asked to use, whether that helps him with Voldemort 
remains to be seen, but that is not a reason to reject the 
opportunity to use what clearly appears to be superior
magical information.

Magpie:
That doesn't answer what I said. If Harry is so focused on getting 
the information out of the book, why is he just using the book in 
class for everything Slughorn assigns in class? I agree with you 
that he's taking the opportunity to test out these potions in class 
and I've got no problem with it--I think it's wise of him to follow 
the Prince's instructions every time instead of the textbook's--but 
to me that doesn't translate into Harry's squeezing all the Potions 
knowledge out of the book that he can. He's just smart enough to 
follow the correct instructions in class. You mentioned that we see 
him performing experiments with the spells outside of class and I 
agree. Spells interest him. DADA interests him. The book interests 
him. I think he gets enjoyment out of it and likes learning the 
things he likes to learn. I don't see him pushed by feeling he's 
learning this stuff for Voldemort at all. To me it seems a lot more 
straightforward: Harry likes a lot of things about the book, he 
wants to keep it. His use of the book in class draws attention to 
himself, because of the results, which are a new thing for him. When 
Slughorn gives him an easy way to explain his progress by calling 
him a natural, he goes along with it. 

Magpie:
I'm sure all the teachers on the list appreciate your putting them in
their place there.:-)



Valky:
This reminds me of debate that raged hot** pre-HBP about Snape
dropping Harry's potion in OOtP and thereby avoiding giving him the
grade that he *did* deserve - as inconsequential vs unfair :

Magpie:
And it was unfair, imo. Luckily Harry's ultimate grades would not be 
able to faked that way, but that doesn't change that what Snape did 
was wrong--significantly so. Harry's using the book in class to give 
himself an advantage won't necessarily get him a better grade on his 
NEWTS. (Though once again I can't help but feel for the other 
students who are getting an inferior class. If Harry gets a better 
grade on his NEWTS because he's studied a better textbook he'll have 
earned it himself and not have cheated at all. But boy, I'd be 
ticked off if I were unfairly handicapped the way the other students 
were.) 

But I still think that if you're taking a class you have to take the 
class seriously to some extent. Not to a crazy extent--I agree that 
obviously Harry getting a good grade on his Potions NEWT is less 
important than his surviving to take it. But if the class doesn't 
mean anything what would be the point of taking it? How would you 
get anything out of it? Harry gets something out of Snape's class 
because most of the time Snape does take it seriously. If Snape 
always just dropped Harry's Potions on the floor and he got zeroes 
and failed because Snape hated him so he was never truly able to 
know when he was doing something right I can't imagine Harry would 
think the class was worth anything. I think he does think it's worth 
something--even in sixth year. It's not the most important thing in 
his life but as a student whose life pretty much is school even with 
Voldemort breathing down his neck, it means something.

I do agree that Harry's grades in individual class days don't matter 
the same way they didn't that day in Snape's class. My point isn't 
that they really do matter more than they do. My point is there is a 
difference in saying, "Yeah, Harry's being a fake here and a bit 
dishonest, but the consequences are pretty limited" and saying, "No, 
Harry's not being dishonest or faking at all because the 
consequences are limited and also he because Harry's really doing 
what he's supposed to be doing anyway, although if he's not doing 
what he should be it's because he's making a sacfifice for 
Voldemort."

-m