/On the trivial and the Profound/Lying & Cheating

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 165537

> Alla:
> 
> Oh, but see here I do disagree. How can it be irrelevant for me?
> Harry keeps Slughorn's opinion of him, for sure. But it is very
> relevant to me why he does that and here I agree with Valky and 
Geoff
> and Mike, etc.
> 
> It is of utmost importance to me, I would say. I want to stress that
> it does not, it does not make what Harry does right, but it
> absolutely makes sense for me that Harry does wrong in something 
that
> of secondary importance for him through HBP IMO.
> 
> Magpie:
> It would make a difference to me too, in terms of Harry's 
character, 
> of course. Every character must be judged and understood on his own 
> terms and the Harry who is trying to put himself ahead in Potions 
> would be a different person than the one in canon now (just as I 
> think the Harry Valky is describing is a totally different person 
> than the one I see in canon). Where it's irrelevent for me is that 
> it doesn't turn something untrue into something true. 
> 
> To compare it to Snape, I think Snape killed DD with an AK. Now, if 
> it does turn out that people are correct in that he didn't kill him 
> for some reason, that changes that Snape didn't kill Dumbledore. If 
> Snape is DDM it doesn't change that he killed Dumbledore. It 
changes 
> his reasons for doing it, it changes the way we understand and 
judge 
> him as a character, it changes the context. But the AK doesn't 
> become not an AK because Snape is acting on DD's orders if he was.

Alla:

Right, it does not turn something true into something untrue, but I 
am just not getting how describing the different reasons for which 
Harry may have done that stuff does not change the general picture. 
not that I am asking you to agree with it, as I mentioned before I 
never write to convince anybody of anything, I am just confused how 
you not seeing the argument translates ( or again what I am reading, 
maybe I am misunderstanding again) into the argument being invalid 
one.

Good analogy with Snape. For sure, yes AK does not change being AK ( 
if this is real one) regardless of what were reasons for Snape to 
fire it off.

But, but, but isn't the picture of Snape heroically taking orders 
from DD and killing his mentor **on his orders** translates into 
something different bigger picture than Snape killing DD to save his 
own skin, to please his boss Voldemort, or any other reasons that we 
can come up with for Evil or OFH! Snape?

Isn't that Snape a much more sympathetic figure? A Saintly follower 
of Dumbledore? I am not kidding at all here.

Same with Harry - regardless of the reasons, he is cheating and he 
knows that.

But Harry who does not really care much about his academic work and 
primarily concerns of his survival, grieving for Sirius, etc, he is 
**still** cheating, yes, but those reasons make me empathise with 
him, feel that this is the moment of the very secondary importance in 
Harry's life. Potions class, I mean.

That as I told you before, if I were to judge people's honesty and 
their general worth as friends based on who cheated in school or 
college, oh boy. I am afraid that **a lot** my friends and some of my 
family back home would have to be considered horrible people. Just 
different mentality, you know?

Yes, I know that you do not think that Harry is a horrible person 
based on that incident. The analogy I am drawing is that this was of 
secondary importance, that's all.
 
> Magpie:
> Yes, but I'm really just still not buying your claims that Harry is 
> approaching Potions class with this different idea of what 
> he's "supposed" to be doing there, and so making his decisions 
based 
> on these higher ideals. The fact that at certain times he says 
> things about Voldemort simply does not translate into a Harry who 
is 
> focused on preparing himself for that battle all year and making 
all 
> his decisions based on what will get him the most skill and 
> knowledge in all things the most quickly. Nor does his attitude 
> towards Potions reflect it that I can see. He's not taking his 
> schoolwork seriously in a different way than other students, he's 
> taking it just as casually as he's done throughout the series. He's 
> interested in the things that interest him, and less interested in 
> the things that don't interest him.

Alla:

Well, I guess then we have to agree to disagree. Plenty of canon was 
given as to how Harry feels about what is coming including that scene 
with DD before he comes to Weasleys and when Harry and DD talking 
that I quoted before.

The fact that if Harry does not talk about it **all** the time, does 
not mean that it is not on his mind all the time IMO.

IMO he talked about it enough for me to see that it IS of utmost 
importance for him - to beat Voldemort, to survive, etc, and yes of 
much more importance than to care much of Potions class.

I understand that it does not translate that way for you, but it 
certainly does for me and I think it is well supported by canon.

Again IMO.