[HPforGrownups] Re: The Power of Harry ... (was: Harry's Characterization)

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 163516

>> Magpie:
>>
>> Like I said, when it comes to magical knowledge and prowess to me
>> it seems like there's just no "there" there. There's nothing to
>> learn, because Rowling hasn't worked it out.    <snip>
>
> Mike:
> I'm not sure from where you base this on. I read somewhere that JKR
> has introduced at least 10 new spells in each book, not counting the
> spells we see (from Harry's pov) but don't know what they are or what
> they do.

Magpie:
Yes, she works out the spells that she's using in the plot--I'm not denying 
that whatever happens has to be magical. If it's love, it will be love that 
manifests in a magical way against Voldemort magic--just as Harry defeated 
him in GoF through the magical wand connection etc.

What I'm saying that JKR doesn't work out is detail beyond so that it's 
always something we can see Harry study. We usually basically get: here is a 
new magical thing and here is how it works. For instance, Horcruxes were 
introduced in HBP. They are soul pieces incased in objects and you have 
murder someone to make one. But it's not like Harry studies the magical 
science of Horcruxes. Portkeys are introduced in GoF and used again later. 
It's introducing a device.

So there's plenty of things Harry's going to have to try to do, but the 
mechanics of it usually seem pretty straightforward. That's how JKR 
introduces things--and always before they're used in the plot.

Mike:
> There are surely more spells that Harry could learn, like the ones
> used by the Order in the MoM battle.

Magpie:
So I'm honestly curious--do those seem to you to be important to learn? 
Because they didn't seem always so different than the ones Harry and his 
friends know.  It's a variation on doing something physical to a person to 
make them fall down or otherwise be incapacitated.  That's what the DA did 
too.  Harry run --it's like when he practices Accio throughout GoF and then 
does it when he needs it. It gives him something to work on and you know 
he'll use it.

The ending surprise magic seems to me to usually be about it being a 
surprise for Harry as well. It doesn't remove the magic--it's just not magic 
that Harry's rehearsed. Sydney wrote about this once before, how the 
Voldemort scenes tend to bring Harry into a more of a dream-reality where 
things happen symbolically. That's what Lily's magic was as well. She didn't 
prepare her protection spell, it was just a mother protecting her child and 
choosing to die and the magic took care of itself. I don't know if she 
herself would even have to be the most powerful witch. If Harry brings out 
some important magic in the end, as I think he will, I don't think it will 
be something that he's prepared for at all.

Mike:
> But beyond that, she has shown Harry to produce prodigious feats of
> magic, besides his ability to remain clear and quick thinking under
> pressure, right up to OotP. IMO, he seems to regress slightly in HBP.
> She needs to continue that storyline, imo, advance Harry's magical
> knowledge if for no other reason than to be true to her own story.

Magpie:
I wouldn't be surprised if, after the first half of the story in HBP, Harry 
makes a lot more of that kind of progress in DH. Ironically, it's when he 
leaves school that he seems ready to get serious about this kind of thing. 
But it makes sense too, in a way.


> Mike:
> You have to think of it the way Steve said earlier; the internal pov
> of Harry vs. the external pov that we have reading the story. Right
> now, I think you're mixing those two in a way that won't allow you
> accept the more "mundane" magical preparation.

Magpie:
No, I agree with Steve's point there and definitely accept the idea. All 
Harry's got next year is a mission to destroy the Horcruxes and kill 
Voldemort, and I there could be plenty of magic lessons to prepare for that. 
I suspect there might be more compelling stuff involved in getting all the 
chess pieces into the right place, though, like with finding out about 
Regulus Black, and something happening with Snape and Draco, etc.

Mike:
> I'll try to analogize it this way. Say a mob boss is after you, the
> top guy, with a lot of muscle, both physical and political. Now your
> mentor gives you a special gun that will kill this guy if you can get
> close enough to him. Problem is, you don't know where to get the
> bullets for this special gun and your mentor forgot to tell you how
> to fire it. Do you arm yourself in the meantime with regular and
> maybe some hightech weapons that you can get and can learn how to use
> to defend yourself? Remember, it's not just the top guy you have to
> worry about, he has all these minions that you've already had run-ins
> with. Wouldn't you want to make sure that his cronies can't
> neutralize you before you figure out how to work your special gun?

Magpie:
Yes, I completely already agree with the logic of this. I'm not sure it will 
be the focus of the book, even for Harry. But that's only because I don't 
think I predict what JKR will do. I see the logic in everything you're 
saying here, though. He's got to do *something* regardless of what it is--I 
don't think he can just wait around for something to happen.

Mike:
> Are there spells for breaking curses if he finds another Horcrux
> guarded like the ring was? Is there a healing spell, in case
> something else demands a blood payment? Is there an anti-apparation
> spell, to stop someone (cough, Mundungus, cough) from escaping before
> you can get some information or thing from them? Is there a drying
> spell, in case you have to wade through frigid water again? (Was
> there anything more pathetic than the visual of Harry standing in the
> outer cave shivering while watching Dumbledore?) Hell, he generated
> some force, like an electric shock, which caused Vernon to release
> him in OotP. Could he maybe figure out how he did that?

Magpie:
Sure, like the way she'd mention them learning a certain spell in school 
that would then get used later. (That's of course a danger when it comes to 
the suspense--we wouldn't want it to just become like another videogame 
where Harry gains all sorts of powers that we then know he's going to use at 
the correct time.)  Hermione's probably got a lot of these kinds of spells 
already, but as I think someone else said, I think Harry's got a lot to do 
in the next book without spending too much page time doing this.

Mike:
> Sure, Harry will get help from his friends. Is that a valid excuse
> for not learning *some* of this himself? I hope Harry has "learned
> more than he realizes", and will display this knowledge in DH. I just
> wish he would have shown some flashes of this knowledge/ability in
> HBP.

Magpie:
Yup, that makes sense. But it might also be a sign of things to come, that 
after a book more focused on learning with OWLS (which even so didn't have 
Harry learning all that many spells), and Harry being good enough to teach 
others with stuff he learned before fifth year, JKR didn't think it was odd 
to give Harry practically a year off. Though to be fair, he *did* do the 
kind of thing you're describing--he learned a spell to keep people from 
eavesdropping, and a spell to flip them up in the air, and a spell to cut 
them as with a sword.

-m