The Power of Harry ... (was: Harry's Characterization)

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 163530

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Magpie" <belviso at ...> wrote:
> 
> Magpie:
> So I'm honestly curious--do those seem to you to be important to 
> learn? Because they didn't seem always so different than the ones 
> Harry and his friends know.  It's a variation on doing something 
> physical to a person to make them fall down or otherwise be 
> incapacitated.  That's what the DA did too.  Harry run --it's like 
> when he practices Accio throughout GoF and then does it when he  
> needs it. It gives him something to work on and you know he'll use 
> it.  <snip>

Mike:
Like I said before, it's not the *what* that Harry needs to learn, 
imo, he needs and needed to be shown as learning, advancing his 
magical knowledge/ability. The Order's MoM spells are just an example 
of the available *whats*. I think it was you that said earlier that 
Harry's magical advancement is a metaphor for Harry's maturation (my 
apologies if it wasn't you). To me, it's confirmation of JKR's 
committment to make the story interesting for the young male 
readership and, for me, it's a continuation of the process that she 
began in PS/SS.  

To me, JKR would be breaking an implied promise, if she stopped 
moving Harry inexorably down the path towards... well, if not 
greatness, then at least exceptional magical prowess. 


> Magpie:
> That's what Lily's magic was as well. She didn't prepare her 
> protection spell, it was just a mother protecting her child and 
> choosing to die and the magic took care of itself. I don't know if 
> she herself would even have to be the most powerful witch. If Harry 
> brings out some important magic in the end, as I think he will, I 
> don't think it will be something that he's prepared for at all.

Mike:
I'm confident that you are right in this assessment. I'm starting to 
realize that I'm concentrating on Harry's past performances and 
airing my disappointment in his HBP performance. In this exchange, 
you are drawing from Harry's characterization and projecting to the 
final confrontation. IOW, I'm not sure we're on the same playing 
field. <sports metaphor, sorry ;-)>
 

> Magpie:
> I wouldn't be surprised if, after the first half of the story in 
> HBP, Harry makes a lot more of that kind of progress in DH. 
> Ironically, it's when he leaves school that he seems ready to get  
> serious about this kind of thing. But it makes sense too, in a way.

Mike:
OK, you returned to my playing field. :)

> Magpie:
> <snip>
> I suspect there might be more compelling stuff involved in getting 
> all the chess pieces into the right place, though, like with 
> finding out about Regulus Black, and something happening with Snape 
> and Draco, etc.

Mike:
And every piece of information regarding Snape's backstory? You bet, 
I'll be eating that stuff up with a spoon, just like everyone else on 
this list.


> Magpie:
> Sure, like the way she'd mention them learning a certain spell in  
> school that would then get used later. (That's of course a danger 
> when it comes to the suspense--we wouldn't want it to just become 
> like another videogame where Harry gains all sorts of powers that  
> we then know he's going to use at the correct time.)  Hermione's 
> probably got a lot of these kinds of spells already, but as I think 
> someone else said, I think Harry's got a lot to do in the next book 
> without spending too much page time doing this.

Mike:
Oh, I agree, I do see a very busy Trio in the next book. So now you 
understand my lament that Harry didn't bother to learn any of these 
most-probably-useful spells, before now. What's Harry's (read JKR's) 
excuse for not learning at least the spells he already knew about? 
Will they help him defeat Voldemort; no. Should he find them 
servicable; he already would have. 

And now I ask myself, does he know many of these spells already and 
JKR just didn't have any place to show he knew them? Maybe he does, 
and maybe all the shipping noise drove the magical advancement off-
page. If that is the case, I'll just have to accept that JKR felt she 
needed to tell that story. <shrug>


 
> Magpie:
> Though to be fair, he *did* do the kind of thing you're 
> describing--he learned a spell to keep people from eavesdropping,
> and a spell to flip them up in the air, and a spell to cut 
> them as with a sword.

Mike:
Yes, that is fair. I just didn't feel like it was enough. It may seem 
simplistic to you <the universal you, not you specifically Magpie:)>, 
but JKR promised a story about witches, wizards and magic, and I'm 
going to hold her to that promise. :P Harry has something that can't 
be quantified in his world, much less in ours. I want to see that 
played out, with Harry fulfilling all the potential JKR has hinted at.

****************************************************************
In HPforGrownups/message/163518 - "BetsyHP" wrote:
> > Mike previously:
> Right, the HP world is about *magic*. However much this story is
> about Harry the everykid/man, the story first and foremost is about
> wizards and witches and their ability to do magic. <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Hmm, actually, I completely disagree with you here, Mike. I think
magic is a stage dressing more than the *foundation* of JKR's world.
<snip>
It's pretty and glittery and can stand in beautifully for real world 
things (a mother's love physically saving her child from harm for 
example) but it's not a story line, it's a prop.

Mike:
Oh well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then Betsy. :-)

Let me expound, anyway. PoA: When Harry reaches out his hand and 
softly says, "Prongs". The connection with his father is a most 
poignant moment for me, and many others I'm sure. GoF: When the echo 
of Lily comes out of the wand and Harry describes his feelings, 
thinking about her <sniffle>, I almost couldn't take the emotion. 

JKR is able to bring me to that emotional level because of the 
magical world she set up. Harry sitting alone in his bed, reminiscing 
about his parents wouldn't do it for me. It was the magic that makes 
it, well... Magical. It's the magic that makes it profound. 

I understand that the magic is, as you put it, standing in for real 
world things. But that is the beauty of the story, JKR using magic to 
make the story more personal, more alive, and more exciting. And she 
gets to bring people back to life, even though she told us that in 
her world dead is dead. Lily and James were alive in those scenes, 
for me, in a way she couldn't have accomplished without magic.

I think that makes magic more than a prop or stage dressing. It 
becomes integral with the way she tells the story. It *does* become a 
foundation upon which she builds. It allows her to accomplish things 
that wouldn't have the impact if they were, say, a dream sequence. 
Not for me anyway. So for me, magic is more than just fun, it's basic 
to the story and essential for the effectiveness.

> > Mike previously:
> One of the reasons JKR and Harry Potter is such a phenomenon is
> because she got *boys* to read again. Take the magic out and where
> is she with that readership?

Betsy Hp:
Cheering madly as Harry outflies a dragon? <g>

Mike:
You mean Harry flies a broom without magic :P Dragons, dragons .... 
hmmm, you mean Komodo dragons, right? Cause, no magic... no flying, 
fire-breathing, horned-tailed dragons, right? <wink>

Betsy Hp:
<snip>
 But I don't recall Harry demonstrating amazing magical ability to 
defeat his foes. About the only thing that comes to mind is his 
Patronus in PoA, and that was a cheat of a sort (the time-turner was 
a big help).

Mike:
Okay, they weren't all prodigious. Guilty as charged. :) Other than 
the Patronus, the rest of them could better be classified as subtle. 
(won't repeat them all again). But producing a Patronus was 
prodigious even if he wouldn't have done it without the time-turner. 
I don't think that makes it a cheat, that's magical production with 
the help of a magical prop.

Betsy Hp:
<snip>
It's not that there isn't a logical reason for Harry to embark on a
heavy duty training regimen, it's just out of character, for both
Harry and JKR. I expect more book study than spell study. (Though I
do think Harry will work on his non-verbals.)

Mike:
Do you mean you expected, past tense? Or do you think there is more 
book study to come for Harry? Seems unlikely to me. I mean, what book 
knowledge other than spell knowledge are you expecting Harry to go 
looking for?


Betsy Hp (noticing Magpie's already answered this post, but darn it,
I'm posting this anyway <g>.)

Mike, noticing that though Betsy's post came after Magpie's, it's 
threaded above Magpie's. How does that happen?

PS - Betsy, you're an elf so I'll ask you. If you start a post before 
midnight local, but finish after midnight local, which day does it 
count towards your five max? I'm such a slow typist, it feels like I 
started this yesterday. Wait... I did, shoot. :(