Snape, a Deatheater.

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 163531

Magpie:
> So do you believe he was somehow saving his skin when he took the
UV? Because to me taking a UV and always choosing to save your own
neck are mutually exclusive.

Carol responds:

Up to this point I agree with you.

Magpie:
 It seems to me that whenever you start to think about 
> Snape making the decision to kill Dumbledore you've got to go all
the way back to Spinner's End, because that's when it becomes
inevitable if Snape is going to live.

Carol:
I'm confused here. I don't think that Snape made the decision to kill
DD at Spinner's End even though he agreed to the third provision. He
was at least as likely to die as Dumbledore, and I think he believed
that he and DD together could prevent the vow from being activated.
Granted, it was possible that he'd have to do it, and when he realized
what Narcissa was going to ask, his hand twitched, but I think that
once he heard the way it was worded, he thought there might be a
loophole. After all, Dumbledore was the greatest wizard in the world.
Surely, he could avoid a showdown with a sixteen-year-old boy. But
inevitable that Snape is going to live? I certainly don't see it that
way. It's not inevitable until he makes his decision on the tower
after hearing DD plead and looking into his eyes. And the
circumstances on the tower--a greatly weakened, helpless, wandless,
probably dying Dumbledore, Death Eaters brought into the castle
despite all their precautions, and Harry in his Invisibility Cloak,
could not have been anticipated. Nothing inevitable about it that I
can see. Unless, perhaps, I'm misunderstanding you.
> 
Magpie:
> I honestly don't see anywhere near the amount of pressure on Snape
in Spinner's End to think he was forced into the Vow. He seems to take
that of his own free will--and I should mention I've always thought
that he knew exactly what task he was vowing to complete as well.

Carol:
Yes and no. He mulls it over and chooses to take the vow as Narcissa
proposes it, to help and protect Draco. "Help" he can interpret in his
own way (as in putting Crabbe and Goyle in detention) and in any case,
the UV as worded only asks him to watch over and protect Draco, as he
would have done in any case. But the third provision seems to me
unanticipated. Narcissa didn't mention it when she asked him to take
the UV, so he is not initially agreeing to it. And the hand twitch
also indicates that it's unanticipated. He takes it, maintaining his
self-control and not betraying his emotions, but I'm not sure he has
any choice. His wand hand is already bound to Narcissa's by ropes of
fire. Even if Bellatrix, standing over him with her wand pointed at
him, didn't kill him, or even if she didn't find a way to report him
to Voldemort as disloyal (refusing to kill Dumbledore) without
incriminating herself, desperate Narcissa, who's already said there's
nothing she won't do, might have threatened him or even killed him.
And he wants her trust, as he also wants to reduce (though he can't
eliminate) Bellatrix's suspicions. He takes a calculated risk--and,
IMO, he loses, thanks to the circumstances on the tower.

Magpie:
 It seems impossible to me that he's bluffing throughout the scene (it
also seems to make the UV into a pretty much a comedy).

Carol:
I hope you mean that bluffing would make the UV a comedy, not that the
scene reads as one to you. It certainly doesn't to me even though I
believe that he's telling a lot of half truths (not bluffing about
knowing the task, at least the part about killing DD, but certainly
not letting them know his role in sending the Order to the MoM or
healing DD's injury or the nature of that injury, to name a few). But
to me, the imagery at the end of "Spinner's End" is anything but
comic--ropes of fire, also described as chains, *binding* Snape. I can
almost feel the DADA curse falling into place as he's trapped by his
own cleverness in agreeing to take the vow. He's very much in control,
even on his knees holding Narcissa's hand during the first two,
anticipated, provisions, but I felt the bottom drop out of my world
when she stated the third one. "Bellatrix's astounded face glowed red
in the blaze of a third tongue of flame, which shot forth from the
wand, twisted with the others, and bound itself thickly around their
clasped hands, like a rope, like a fiery snake." (HBP Ame. ed. 37).
Red, blaze, flame, shot, twisted, bound, rope, fiery, snake. How much
more ominous can a single sentence be?

Magpie: 
> So I can never see Snape saving his own skin by killing Dumbledore
in terms of the UV only because he's the one who placed the UV on
himself, if that makes sense. There has to be some further
explanation, whichever flavor of Snape you prefer. Because any way you
look at it, the UV is a suicidal gamble.

Carol:
Now here I agree with you completely. And my "further explanation" is
that at the very moment Narcissa proposed the third provision,
Slughorn had accepted the Potions position, making Snape the DADA
teacher. The DADA curse fell into place at exactly that moment. But,
yes, it was a suicidal gamble and it was wholly inconsistent with
self-preservation as his motive on the tower. In both cases, the UV
and the tower, he was saving Draco. And, IMO, he was saving Harry on
the tower as well. Only by killing DD and fulfilling the vow could he
have saved both boys and gotten the DEs out of Hogwarts. And that's
what those ropes of fire, still, perhaps, burning him as we see his
agony in "Flight of the Prince," signify to me.

Carol, wondering what the new member who asked when we realized that
Snape was "bad" thinks of us now!