Snape, a Deatheater./The Power of Harry ... (was: Harry's Characterization)

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 163541

> Magpie:
> It seems to me that whenever you start to think about
>> Snape making the decision to kill Dumbledore you've got to go all
> the way back to Spinner's End, because that's when it becomes
> inevitable if Snape is going to live.
>
> Carol:
> I'm confused here. I don't think that Snape made the decision to 
kill
> DD at Spinner's End even though he agreed to the third provision. He
> was at least as likely to die as Dumbledore, and I think he believed
> that he and DD together could prevent the vow from being activated.

Magpie:
This is complicated when I try to explain it...but I was speaking 
specifically to the idea that Snape killed Dumbledore to save his own 
skin in taking the vow. If one believes that Snape killed DD to save 
himself from the UV and he always wants to protect his own life, then 
I think one has to say that Snape basically made that decision back 
in Spinner's End when he decided to make keeping his own life 
dependent on DD.

I, personally, think that Snape possibly did have other ideas in mind 
than killing DD when he took the Vow, but that being a realist he was 
accepting that once you take a UV you've committed yourself to doing 
something with dire consequences if you don't. So if Snape had no 
intention of killing DD, even if he thought he could keep the Vow 
from detonating, he would know he was risking dying himself if it 
didn't work.

Carol:
But
> inevitable that Snape is going to live? I certainly don't see it 
that
> way. It's not inevitable until he makes his decision on the tower
> after hearing DD plead and looking into his eyes. And the
> circumstances on the tower--a greatly weakened, helpless, wandless,
> probably dying Dumbledore, Death Eaters brought into the castle
> despite all their precautions, and Harry in his Invisibility Cloak,
> could not have been anticipated. Nothing inevitable about it that I
> can see. Unless, perhaps, I'm misunderstanding you.

Magpie:
I hopefully explained it more in the above paragraph, but again I was 
going from the OP's idea that Snape's priority is saving his own skin-
-like Peter, for instance. If one assumes that this is Snape's 
character and so why he killed DD, and he takes a Vow that says he'll 
die if he doesn't kill DD, then Snape's killing Dumbledore seems to 
become pretty inevitable. (If you think of it in a straightforward 
way and don't imagine any unexpected things happening, which OFH!
Snape would have had to consider.)

> Magpie:
>> I honestly don't see anywhere near the amount of pressure on Snape
> in Spinner's End to think he was forced into the Vow. He seems to 
take
> that of his own free will--and I should mention I've always thought
> that he knew exactly what task he was vowing to complete as well.
>
> Carol:
> Yes and no. He mulls it over and chooses to take the vow as Narcissa
> proposes it, to help and protect Draco. "Help" he can interpret in 
his
> own way (as in putting Crabbe and Goyle in detention) and in any 
case,
> the UV as worded only asks him to watch over and protect Draco, as 
he
> would have done in any case. But the third provision seems to me
> unanticipated. Narcissa didn't mention it when she asked him to take
> the UV, so he is not initially agreeing to it. And the hand twitch
> also indicates that it's unanticipated. He takes it, maintaining his
> self-control and not betraying his emotions, but I'm not sure he has
> any choice. His wand hand is already bound to Narcissa's by ropes of
> fire.

Magpie:
I guess this unfortunately comes down to knowing how UV's work and we 
can't look that up anywhere outside the book.:-) To me I guess it 
just seems like he does have the ability to not accept any Vow he 
likes. He could just say, "No" and then the Vow would have been 
sealed with the two provisions--otherwise someone could trap a person 
in the ropes and force them to Vow to anything they added on. Also 
storywise I think Snape making the decision himself is important, but 
that's a personal preference again. Snape does a lot of things 
reluctantly, but I think his important decisions are all still his 
own.

Carol:
Even if Bellatrix, standing over him with her wand pointed at
> him, didn't kill him, or even if she didn't find a way to report him
> to Voldemort as disloyal (refusing to kill Dumbledore) without
> incriminating herself, desperate Narcissa, who's already said 
there's
> nothing she won't do, might have threatened him or even killed him.

Magpie:
I don't see Snape in any real danger from the two women. He seems in 
control in the scene, and if either of them threatened to kill him, 
based on his attitude in the scene, I can't see him being that 
threatened. I don't think he's in much danger from Bellatrix 
reporting him either, since she'd be reporting him for refusing to do 
something for her and Narcissa, not Voldemort. If Snape refused to 
kill Dumbledore on Voldemort's orders that would be disloyal, but not 
on Narcissa's orders. The other DEs are all under orders to make sure 
it's Draco who does it.

Carol:
> And he wants her trust, as he also wants to reduce (though he can't
> eliminate) Bellatrix's suspicions. He takes a calculated risk--and,
> IMO, he loses, thanks to the circumstances on the tower.

Magpie:
That sums up the way I see it. I've no doubt Snape has good reasons 
for taking the Vow that we don't understand in full yet. But I think 
he's making the decision himself as a strategic move.

> Magpie:
> It seems impossible to me that he's bluffing throughout the scene 
(it
> also seems to make the UV into a pretty much a comedy).
>
> Carol:
> I hope you mean that bluffing would make the UV a comedy, not that 
the
> scene reads as one to you. It certainly doesn't to me even though I
> believe that he's telling a lot of half truths (not bluffing about
> knowing the task, at least the part about killing DD, but certainly
> not letting them know his role in sending the Order to the MoM or
> healing DD's injury or the nature of that injury, to name a few). 
But
> to me, the imagery at the end of "Spinner's End" is anything but
> comic--ropes of fire, also described as chains, *binding* Snape. I 
can
> almost feel the DADA curse falling into place as he's trapped by his
> own cleverness in agreeing to take the vow. He's very much in 
control,
> even on his knees holding Narcissa's hand during the first two,
> anticipated, provisions, but I felt the bottom drop out of my world
> when she stated the third one. "Bellatrix's astounded face glowed 
red
> in the blaze of a third tongue of flame, which shot forth from the
> wand, twisted with the others, and bound itself thickly around their
> clasped hands, like a rope, like a fiery snake." (HBP Ame. ed. 37).
> Red, blaze, flame, shot, twisted, bound, rope, fiery, snake. How 
much
> more ominous can a single sentence be?

Magpie:
I agree--I didn't think it was a comedy at all. I meant that if Snape 
didn't actually know what he was doing it becomes absurd because now 
he's done all this and he's running around trying to find 
out, "Draco, sweetie, could you give me a hint just what I've agreed 
to die if I don't do? I didn't get that memo..."

Even the UV scene, to me, loses a lot of its weight if Snape doesn't 
know what he's committing to. Right now it's written in a way that's 
ominous because everyone's talking about this awful deed that's to be 
done. If Snape's just bluffing then his lines are all fakes. "He 
means me to do it in the end," has no significance beyond Snape tap 
dancing to pretend he knows what he's talking about when he doesn't.  
I felt that bottom drop too when Snape agreed to the third provision, 
but if Snape doesn't know what he's doing it puts off that bottom 
dropping out until he finds out what he's done.

And--snipping the rest but connected to it--if you look at Snape's 
character it's consistent for him to be putting himself in danger 
this way. He's a double agent, and I think that's of his own volition 
as well. There's a reason, imo, that "If you are ready...if you are 
prepared..." is such a memorable line in the series. Dumbledore isn't 
forcing Snape to play any dangerous games with Voldemort either. At 
the end of GoF Snape is committing himself to a dangerous situation 
as well. I'm sure if Snape refused at the end of GoF DD would 
probably offer him protection without insisting he be a 
double agent. This is the kind of thing Snape does.:-)

It's also, I think, something Rowling might find compelling, the idea 
of pushing the forgiveness into active attempts to do better in the 
forgiven. Regulus, as it turns out, didn't just try to run, he died 
in an act of defiance against Voldemort. Snape didn't just give up 
the DEs, he became what seems to be Dumbledore's most valuable worker.

Mike:
Like I said before, it's not the *what* that Harry needs to learn, 
imo, he needs and needed to be shown as learning, advancing his 
magical knowledge/ability. The Order's MoM spells are just an example 
of the available *whats*. I think it was you that said earlier that 
Harry's magical advancement is a metaphor for Harry's maturation (my 
apologies if it wasn't you). To me, it's confirmation of JKR's 
committment to make the story interesting for the young male 
readership and, for me, it's a continuation of the process that she 
began in PS/SS.

To me, JKR would be breaking an implied promise, if she stopped 
moving Harry inexorably down the path towards... well, if not 
greatness, then at least exceptional magical prowess.

<snip>

I'm starting to realize that I'm concentrating on Harry's past 
performances and airing my disappointment in his HBP performance. In 
this exchange, you are drawing from Harry's characterization and 
projecting to the final confrontation. IOW, I'm not sure we're on the 
same playing field. 
<sports metaphor, sorry ;-)>

Magpie:
I think I do get it now--I think we really were on different playing 
fields before.:-)  I also do definitely get the appeal of the hero 
growing in his abilities. I think JKR's often been in a bind there 
because on the one hand JKR's writing a school story where magic is 
just a stand in for subjects in school, and so she has Harry treat 
this stuff the way a kid might treat algebra if he's not particularly 
interested in it.

But given Harry's situation and type of school, he really can't 
say "When am I ever going to use this in real life?" If I can quote 
someone else who said this to me recently, "Harry doesn't feel like 
he's a powerful wizard at the beginning, but we know that he's facing 
a conflict, direct or indirect, with a powerful wizard at the end, so 
his progress in his studies is potentially important to the plot in 
the way that, say, Tom Brown's progress in Latin is not."

Plus, being good at magical spells is sexy.

-m