Occlumency vs. Anti-Imperius (was: The Power of Harry ...)

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 163598

---  "sistermagpie" <belviso at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> > Carol:
> > This one I'll concede, though I wonder if the ability
> > to resist the Imperius Curse is one of the abilities 
> > he acquired from Voldemort. It's odd that he can do 
> > so but can't do Occlumency (so JKR says) since the 
> > two require similar abilities. ...
> 
> Magpie:
> Actually, I do think it makes sense that Harry is good 
> (at one) and not the other, ... When he throws off 
> Imperius it's saying that he knows himself. His will is
> clear to him. So when a little voice that's not his own 
> whispers for him to do something, he's able to 
> recognize it as foreign and must his entire will against
> it.
> 
> Occlumency depends on the ability to fragment that 
> Harry doesn't have. He's not able to hide parts of 
> himself away or cut himself off from them. But just as
> his ability to use his whole self makes him stronger 
> than Imperius, it makes it impossible for him to do 
> Occlumency.
> 
> It's a cool difference, actually, when you figure that
> Harry the Gryffindor is a natural at throwing off 
> Imperius and Draco the Slytherin is a natural at 
> Occlumency, because of what it suggests about the houses.
> ...
> 
> ...their real strength comes from the will for Harry and 
> the emotion for Draco ... They both naturally have more
> control over their strength--Harry has more control over
> his will (so won't give in to Imperius), Draco has more
> control over his emotions (so can repress and fake them).
> 
> -m

bboyminn:

Excellent post; though I think it only covers one aspect
of the subject. Though admittedly it covers that aspect
very insightfully.

Let me point out another aspect that doesn't necessarily
contradict your own.

The Imperius Curse is about following a command. Yes, if
the command is repugnant enough it could stir some 
emotions, but the induced euphoria would probably take
care of that. So, yes, as you said, Harry is able to
muster a strength of Will against it, but he is able to
do that because there is no emotional involvement.

The Legilimens Curse, and I say the curse or spell because
that is the only real example we have where we see things
from the inside; from inside Harry's head. This spell 
brings forth memories that have very strong emotions 
tied to them. Harry sees many of his most humiliating
experiences while under the Legilimens Spell. Also note
that in the bathroom after Cursing Draco, Harry is 
appalled at his own actions and by the damage he 
inflicted on Draco. Thus an emotionally charges 
stituation; guilt, shame, fears, etc.... Consequently,
he can't suppress his thoughts of the book. I think
part of it was that Harry felt so guilty, that he 
couldn't muster the will to hide his thoughts of the
book. 

So really the difference is on one hand you are refusing
a somewhat emotionally neutral command, on the other had
you are trying to suppress very emotional memories. It is
easy to see why for Harry, the Imperius is easier.

Also, for most of the memories that come forth, Harry is
just as curious to see them as anyone. He is also 
curious about the walk down the long dark hall. If he had
understood the danger of allowing his dreaming mind to
go down that hall, he may have been able to muster some
resistance. But the reasons and explanations he is given
are wholly inadequate to surpress his curiousity. 

Finally, and the reason I think Harry has /some/ 
Occlumency abilities is because when a memory that has
very strong emotions, memories that he REALLY does NOT
want anyone to see, he finds away to stop it. Usually
these memories involve Cho Chang, but they are far more
personal and embarassing than Dudley taunting him years
ago. So, though it is not always by blocking the 
memory, Harry does find a way to cut off the memories
he truly does not want anyone to see.

No, Harry is never going to be great at Occlumency, but
I think he has more talent than we are giving him credit
for, and I think that misconception is intentional on
the part of the author.

I think misconception exists relative to many aspect of
Harry. I think we have seen hints of his immense 
underlying magical power, but we have far more often seen
Harry struggling to learn what he needs to know at the 
moment. 

Though it is just from memory, I believe Harry says 
himself that he seemed to have developed a bit of a
mental block toward the Summoning Charm. I think to
some extent this is avoidance behavior, Harry - the 
reluctant Hero, much the way many of us knew he had 
an important critical college paper due, and we did 
everything we could think of but work on that paper. 
Just like us and our college paper, at the last minute,
under the pressure of an impending deadline, we were 
able to pull it off, so to does Harry. 

He doesn't want to do these things. He doesn't want to
/have/ to learn Occlumency. He doesn't want to /have/ to
learn the Summoning Charm. He doesn't want to /have/ to
learn the Patronus. But once he gets past the /have to/
and gets to the /must/, he manages to pull it off.

I think Harry is very internally conflicted. He wants to
be an ordinary kids and struggles to be so by staying 
out of the limelight. But fate has other ideas for Harry.
And when fate has back him into a corner so that 
subconsciously trying to avoid being the hero is no longer
an option, Harry doesn't hesitate to learn what he needs 
to learn and to step forward and be the hero he must. 

I'm not contradicting what you have said, I'm just pointing
out of few other aspects.

Steve/bboyminn