CHAPDISC: HBP28, Flight of the Prince

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 163662

Carol earlier:
<snip>
> > I don't see how Snape, who was teaching at Hogwarts and did not
know the Secret, could have been at GH or why he would be there since
his supposed DE task was to spy on Dumbledore, not hang around with
Voldemort. I think that Snape had no clue that the Potters had been
betrayed until he felt a pain in his Dark Mark and then watched it
fade, which could only mean that Voldemort had been attacked and
defeated. I think that snape ran up seven or eight flights of stairs
to see Dumbledore, who had been alerted to the broken Fidelius Charm
(see my previous posts), perhaps by a nightmare, perhaps by the sudden
realization that he knew where the Potters were and a sense that they
were in peril. 
> 
> Brothergib replies:
> I like the theory about Snape. The one thing I couldn't resolve was
 this - If Voldemort's wand was retrieved by PP after his demise, then
surely Snape would have seen this (although I am still not completely
convinced that this wasn't an oversight by JKR).

Carol responds:
I'm sure that PP transformed into a rat immediately after showing
Voldemort the house. James didn't see him, either. He merely shouted
to Lily that he (Voldemort) was at the house. And yet PP had to be
there to retrieve the wand afterwards. I think he watched the whole
thing in rat form, briefly switched back to human form to hide the
wand, then scampered away in rat form before Hagrid arrived. I'm sure
there's no oversight involved. Why else make PP a rat Animagus and not
something bigger, like a skunk?

brothergib:
 A fading Dark Mark is certainly a good way to bring Snape into the
scenario. However, I am firmly in the camp that believes that the
Fidelius wasn't broken. PP told Voldemort (which was perfectly within
his rights as SK) and it was Voldemort who then attacked the Potters -
therefore the charm should still be in place.

Carol:
I don't think that informing Voldemort was "within [PP's] rights as
SK" since it's Voldemort the Potters were hiding *from* and PP was
knowing endangering them, even bringing about their deaths, by
revealing it to him, whereas he would not be endangering or betraying
them by telling, say, Lupin, whom he knew was not their enemy
(assuming that Lupin is not ESE!). Voldemort was the whole reason the
Fidelius Charm was cast in the first place. So, IMO, revealing the
Secret to Voldemort *was* a breach of faith and could therefore have
broken the charm. See my posts on the etymology of "Fidelius." (And,
again, once the two Potters were dead, Harry exposed, and the hiding
place destroyed, there was no Secret to be kept, so if the charm
wasn't broken by the betrayal, it must have been broken by the
nonexistence of the Secret.) Glad you like my idea about Snape's Dark
Mark, though!

brothergib:
 Therefore, in your scenario, Snape would be the one who told DD that
something bad has happened to LV. DD's knowledge of the prophecy would
suggest that Harry was to blame, and that would lead DD to Godric's
Hollow (since he had offered the house to the Potter's, he would
suspect that they were there, even if he hadn't been told directly by PP).
> 
Carol:
Sort of. Harry wouldn't be "to blame," of course, but he would somehow
be indirectly responsible for thwarting Voldemort. But I'm quite sure
that no one told DD the Secret or he's have known that Black was not
the SK (PP would not have told him, though he might have pretended
to). I'm also sure that Snape didn't know it. I think that the house
in Godric's Hollow belonged to Dumbledore, that he had offered it to
them for their use either before or at the same time that he offered
to be SK, and his remembering the house, along with some foreboding of
danger (a nightmare?) alerted him to their danger at the same time or
just before Snape felt a searing pain in his Dark Mark signalling the
AK rebounding on Voldemort. I think they put their heads together and
figured out that the adult Potters were dead, Voldemort was vanquished
but not dead, and Harry was alone and in danger. So DD sent Hagrid to
rescue him (possibly with Snape as his escort but that isn't really
part of my theory). I also think that Snape examined baby Harry and
made sure he wasn't cursed or possessed, which would explain Hagrid's
certainty that Snape is on their side. 

I agree that DD's remark, "No trouble, was there?" implies that he
hasn't seen Hagrid since he sent him to GH, but it doesn't mean that
*Snape* didn't see Harry, examine him to be sure he was unharmed, and
then describe the cut to Dumbledore. He would also have seen the dead
Potters, the ruins of the house, and possibly bits of Voldemort's
exploded body. (Not the wand, though, since PP had hidden it.)
Possibly Snape and DD together figured out from the cut on Harry's
forehead that the AK had been deflected and burst out of his head,
leaving the lightning-bolt (eihwaz rune?) shaped cut. DD must have
figured out the part about Lily's sacrifice being ancient Love magic.
I don't think Love magic is Snape's forte!


brothergib: 
> An alternative scenario (following on from your theory);
> Snape informs DD about the fading Dark Mark. DD and Snape apparate
to GH. They find a destroyed house but no Potter's. However, DD can
detect traces of magical concealment (a la 'The Cave) and sets about
breaking down the 'Fidelius Charm'. Once he was successful, he sends 
Snape to fetch Hagrid (side-along apparition). It is Hagrid who picks
baby Harry up from the rubble! Perhaps they all check him over at this
point. 

Carol:
Too time-consuming, I think. We know that Sirius Black checked on PP
(perhaps he had a foreboding as a result of the broken charm) and
hurried to GH (not quite as fast as he might if he'd Apparated but
still quickly). He got there before the Muggles arrived. And the
Muggles would have been alerted by the exploding house, which was not
hidden by the Fidelius Charm. I don't think DD was present at GH.
Maybe he was using his instruments to figure out what had happened.
After talking to Snape, he would have had to concoct the protective
Charm, which would need to be in place before Hagrid arrived with Baby
Harry. And someone would have to talk with the Ministry officials. I
doubt that he's want that person to be Snape, nor does it seem that
Hagrid had time to do it. (I think Hagrid must have been babysitting,
a variation on COMC for him. <g> Yes, I know he was just the
groundskeeper at this point!)

brothergib:
I would imagine that DD would send Snape to the other DEs 
> to see if he could ascertain what had happened. 

Carol:
Maybe, but that seems needlessly dangerous, and Snape would be needed
back at the school to make sure that the students were safe. I think
DD and Snape could ascertain what happened (except for the identity of
the traitor) from the available evidence--dead Potters, destroyed
house, open cut on Harry's forehead, Snape's Dark Mark, possibly the
bits of LV, the Prophecy, etc. Certainly, the DEs could not have known
about the Love magic. I doubt that even Bellatrix knew what LV had
planned. And if Snape had spoken with her, he'd have known that
Wormtail was the spy and traitor, as he clearly didn't.

Brothergib:
DD had many things he would have needed to do, but he insisted that
Hagrid alone cared for the baby and would bring him to DD when
requested - lets face it, who could have forcibly taken Harry off
Hagrid. DD and Snape leave and Hagrid is left to make his own way home
with Harry. He then meets up with Sirius and ends up with the bike.

Carol: 
I agree except tht I don't think DD was at GH and *if* Snape was
there, it was only briefly, before Sirius showed up. (Hagrid clearly
didn't know that Sirius was supposedly the SK, or he'd never have
comforted him.)

> Brothergib (who likes this theory, but still isn't totally convinced
that Snape didn't play some part in the events at GH)
>
Carol:
I'm glad you like my theory, but I'm certain that Snape didn't play a
part in the events at GH, even as a witness. As I said, he was at
Hogwarts, teaching and supposedly spying on Dumbledore. He could not
have known the Secret. And we know he wasn't hiding under James's
Invisibility Cloak. There's no reason why he'd have been at GH, and
James's words suggest that LV was alone (except for Wormtail, hiding
in rat form).

Carol, sure that Snape was not at Godric's Hollow when the Potters
were killed but believing that he helped DD in some important way
after their deaths