Maybe Snape really is DDM!

[cdayr]

No: HPFGUIDX 163703

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at ...> wrote:

> Carol responds:
> As the author of a very long and rather notorious post on the DADA
> curse, I think I can point you to some threads! 
> 
> Re: Possible reason[s] for giving Snape the [DADA] job
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135642
> 
> Why would Snape want the DADA position?
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137706
> 
> The DADA jinx and its victims
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137961
> 
> Those should keep you busy for awhile!
> 
> Carol, who had that same sinking feeling when Snape was announced 
as
> DADA teacher, especially after all the ominous imagery in the last 
few
> sentences of "Spinner's End"
>

CDR:
After spending a number of hours reading old posts rather than 
grading papers (oops), my brain is overflowing with the DADA curse. 
I tried to pull out some especially interesting bits to bring into 
this current discussion, but I'm afraid I only got so far before the 
cumbersome beast, Yahoomort, tired me out. Please forgive me if I 
misrepresent any idea, and set me straight!

Here are some of the basic ideas presented back in the day:

Carol in post 137961:
I would even go so far as to say that Quirrell is killed either by 
the will of Voldemort acting through the DADA curse, or by the curse 
itself, which seems to have taken on a life or mind of its own.

CDR:
As I see your theory Carol, the curse has it's own will, and uses 
the weakness/darker side of the DADA professor themselves, through 
an agent of some kind, to bring about their downfall. Is that an 
okay summary? In addition


Carol in post 138059:
What I was getting at though, is that the DADA curse works 
Voldemort's will, consciously or unconsciously.

CDR:
I've been thinking this one over all day, and find it fascinating. I 
see the arguments you make very clearly, in that each DADA professor 
is a small part in the steps that lead to VM's return to power. 
Quirrell almost gets the stone and VM gets to live briefly in his 
body, Crouch gets Harry to the graveyard for the rebirth ceremony, 
Umbridge makes sure that no one is looking for VM for a year, etc. 
(you summarized all of this much more clearly, so interested readers 
should go back to those old posts!).

What I also find interesting though, is that the curse is limited in 
its success in this area. Voldemort did not get the Stone, Harry has 
not been killed, VM did not get the prophesy, etc. The only truly 
successful "will of Voldemort" effect of the curse, it seems to me, 
has been DD's death (and, of course, I believe that DD willed/was 
prepared for his own death, hence this will not really be good for 
Voldemort in the long run). So while the curse is powerful Dark 
Magic, in the end, the defenses put up by Harry and Co. have been 
effective in foiling the outcome of all of its manifestations during 
their time at Hogwarts. To me, that means the overall effect of the 
curse on Snape will likewise not really be to VMs advantage, even if 
the curse was trying to bring about VMs will. What do you all think?

Now my favorite bit:

Carol in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137961:

On a side note, I would like to see Snape and Lupin form a common
cause against Voldemort, understanding that through the curse, he has
used their own weaknesses against them, with terrible consequences 
for
them both. I don't know whether Snape, whose sins are far greater 
than
Lupin's, can face the truth about himself and show genuine remorse. I
don't know whether Lupin has the integrity to forgive him or the
courage to join with him, knowing that Snape's skill and power are
greater than his and that Snape, if anyone, can destroy the Horcruxes
and pave the way to Voldemort's fall. But they are both victims of 
the
DADA curse, both victims of Voldemort in more ways than I have
detailed here, and that, to me, would be a very satisfying resolution
of the Snape and Lupin threads, and maybe the only way to end the
curse he placed on the DADA position. 

CDR:
Oh, this idea literally brings a tear to my eye. As characters, I 
see so many similarities in the personalities of Snape and Lupin 
(not to mention they are my two favorites)- ostracized, a dark side, 
internal and brooding, willing to take big risks for their beliefs, 
both spies, both given a chance by DD, and as you say, both victims 
of VM several times over, including the DADA curse. If only they 
could step back and see these things, they would be a very strong 
team. We can dream, eh?

Onto more recent posts:

I see a couple of similar but independent ideas forming.

Valky in post 163684:
If we look at the Dada teacher successively, I think we can see that
the teachers worst intentions are turned upon them by the curse.

Carol in post 163692: 
Interesting take, Valky. I don't think it's intentions, though, so
much as a hidden flaw or secret in the DADA teacher.

CDR:
I think I lean towards the "hidden flaw or secret revealed" end of 
this debate, although I like both ideas of the curse, as they both 
have strong canon support that has been detailed up and down thread, 
and are actually very similar in many ways, especially if you 
believe that keeping secrets is generally the sign of bad intentions 
or weakness. (Seeing as how DD's massive secret keeping has not 
really worked out too well for him so far, one can only hope the 
floodgates open and secrets start to be revealed right and left 
starting on page one of DH.)

My question about the "worst intentions" model for the curse, that 
breaks it down for me, is: What were Lupin's worst intentions? To 
keep his secret from coming out? Maybe. Unlike all of the others, 
though, Lupin doesn't have that big bad intention he is hiding 
(unless he's ESE, right!) and so he does not fit the pattern quite 
enough for me. He does have massive secrets though, as potioncat and 
others mentioned, so the curse had plenty to work on using that 
model.

Either of these models has the same effect on Snape for me however, 
to get back to Chancie's original proposition. If Snape is ESE, his 
worst intention would be to kill DD, and therefore the curse would 
not have allowed him to and he would be killed himself. If he is 
ESE, his secret would be that he is loyal to VM and the curse would 
have turned this against him, likely revealing him to the Order in 
time to save them all from his evil intentions (a la Crouch Jr.). 
Either way, I think a DADA curse that ends with Snape killing DD and 
escaping is evidence that this was not the ending Snape had 
wanted/intended, but rather contrary to his hopes. 

CDR, thanking Carol in particular for all the great reading 
suggestions, and wondering if I actually added anything here or just 
worked through it all by writing it down