JKR's Dumbledore: Harry or Hermione (was:Re: It really annoys me ... [LONG]

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 163931

> Betsy Hp: [never met a gauntlet she *didn't* want to pick 
> up. "Because they're so sparkly!"]

<SNIP>

Alla:

Tee hee, I live to please :)

> Betsy Hp:
<SNIP>
> Dumbledore sent Hagrid to get the Stone on the same day he was set 
to 
> wander about Diagon Alley with the attention grabbing "Harry 
Potter! 
> Boy Who Lived!!" so that anyone with the wrong sort of curiosity 
> would take note of Hagrid's second errand.  Dumbledore was drawing 
> the attention of the would-be thief *away* from the Flamels and 
> towards one of the most powerful wizards in the WW.  Himself.

Alla:

Oh, I actually love it, LOTS. I would love for that to be true.


> > >>Dicentra:
> > 2. It is also no coincidence that the stone was retrieved the day
> > Quirrell broke into Gringotts. Dumbledore must have known what 
had
> > happened to Quirrell in Albania and what Voldemort was up to. He
> > brought the stone to Hogwarts to protect it, yes, but he also 
knew
> > Voldemort would follow it. Perfect opportunity to let 
Harry        
> > confront him.
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Ooh, *major* leap here.  Suddenly we're supposed to believe that 
> Dumbledore *knew* Voldemort was residing in the back of Quirrell's 
> head?  Some canon would be nice. <snipped for details> There are 
two ways to explain the coincidence: (1) JKR needed to drop 
> a clue for the reader here.  (2)Hagrid picked up the Stone as soon 
as 
> Dumbledore got word that the defenses of Gringotts were being 
tested: 
> a race that Dumbledore won.
> 
> Frankly, especially considering that this was also Harry's 
birthday, 
> I'm going with author-convenient coincidence. <snipped for 
details> 

Alla:

Okay, I am not sure I understand what you are saying here. I mean, 
the reason why Dicentra argues that DD knew is because he retrieved 
Stone on that very day that Quirrell did.

Are you saying that it happened just because it happened? Just for 
plot related reasons?

I mean, that is possible of course and I myself argued plot based 
reasons often enough, but if we have two possibilities and one of 
them has another canon to support it, isn't the plot needs reason 
gets weaker automatically?

I mean, sure we do not know for sure that DD knew about Quirrel 
being Quirrelmort, what I am trying to say is that isn't this 
coincidence at least makes the implication valid, if it makes sense 
to you :)


> > >>Dicentra:
> > 3. As has been mentioned, the Mirror of Erised was the only real
> > protection the stone had. <SNIP> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Or any Death Eater for that matter.  I absolutely agree that the 
> mirror was a monkey trap.  <SNIP> And just to be 
> sure, Dumbledore gave his big "avoid the third floor!  That's 
right, 
> the *third* *floor*!!" announcement.
><SNIP>

Alla:

Oh, Heeee. Betsy do you know how much trouble I am having snipping 
your post. I am laughing again when I am rereading the third floor 
announcement, LOL.

Sure, agreed, DD was attracting attention but see below.

 
> I still don't see any reason to think Dumbledore was expecting 
> *Voldemort* himself to get trapped.  But I do think he was 
preparing 
> for an intelligent, powerful, and at this point unknown Death 
Eater 
> to enter the scene.  Hence the desire to capture, not kill nor 
deter.

Alla:

The problem with this argument as I see it, or maybe I missed your 
point is that if you are saying that DD did not expect Voldemort in 
the back of Quirrel's head, why would he expect a DE to appear?

If he knows that somebody is after Stone, would he not know who is 
that person, who is the only person who would want to be after the 
stone?

Or at least that this DE would be heavily coached by LV.



> > >>Dicentra:
> > 4. Dumbledore gave Harry the Cloak of Invisibility for Christmas,
> > telling him to "use it wisely." What could that mean except "go
> > roaming about the school after hours to figure out this mystery"?
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Why not just, "use it wisely"? <SNIP>

Alla:

Actually I will buy this one. Thanks :)


> > >>Dicentra:
> > 5. It's therefore no coincidence that Harry found the Mirror of
> > Erised. <SNIP> 

Betsy Hp:
> Again, this is a leap.  For one thing, Harry didn't need to learn 
how 
> to "work" the mirror to get the Stone at the end of PS.  <SNIP> 
So, Dumbledore talking to Harry about resisting the mirror's pull 
> isn't written as mysterious, and it isn't necessary.  So I don't 
> think there's a hidden purpose behind it.  It is what it is.

Alla:

Ok, I snipped rather arbitrarily, but I lost the argument. Could you 
tell me again why Dumbledore felt a need to tell Harry about Mirror 
at all?

I mean, see to me any talk about the mirror and NOT go looking for 
it would encourage eleven year old boy to do **precisely** that - go 
looking for it.

Why would DD bother? I am not sure I followed your would give DD a 
reason to confront Harry later on.


 
> Betsy Hp:
<SNIP>
> If the mirror was a test for Harry, it was very silly of 
Dumbledore 
> to not be around to *observe* Harry's reactions to the test.  
> (Really, if it were a test, there should have been a one-way-
mirror 
> somewhere, with Dumbledore and Snape and McGonagall in white lab-
> coats and clip boards watching the Trio's progress.)
> <SNIP>

Alla:

Hehe, true, true. ( I have to think about your explanations for 6 
and 7, so I just cut them)


>> Betsy Hp:
> But Harry is already wrong in at least one point.  There was no 
> purpose to him knowing how the mirror worked.  The mirror worked 
with 
> or without Harry knowing about it.  Harry's knowledge changed 
nothing.
> <SNIP>

Alla:

Is he though? As I said above to me the purpose of conversation was 
to encourage Harry go looking for it.

Betsy:
> Still, many people do take Harry's version of Dumbledore as JKR's 
> version.  But if that is so, then she's writing an ESE!Dumbledore 
and 
> I just can't get behind that idea.  I can see why JKR might play 
coy 
> with our take on Dumbledore in the beginning.  But if she 
seriously 
> wants us to fully understand Dumbledore, and to like him, then she 
> has to be clear that Hermione's reaction was the correct one.
> <SNIP>

Alla:

That **is** a biggie for me and the one that I cannot pass. The main 
reason why I buy this version as JKR version is because as I 
mentioned upthread I just do not **hear** Harry in this speech, it 
does not sound to me as his way of talking at all, but pretty much 
as JKR talking.

Another reason why I think Hermione is wrong here ( although I hope 
not), because earlier she pretty much sets herself as being 
inferiour to Harry in this challenge if it makes sense with her 
books and cleverness remark.

Ugh, wrong words, she is not inferior of course, she solved the 
puzzle, helped a plenty, but **Harry** was the one who got the stone.

So, that would make sense to me if he would also be the one who 
gives us the reasons of why he went there, if that makes any sense.

Betsy, let's do it more often, I loved your explanation on lots of 
points.

JMO,

Alla