JKR's Dumbledore: Harry or Hermione (was:Re: It really annoys me ... [LONG]

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 163926

> >>Alla: [throwing down a gauntlet; chuckling evilly]
> <snip> ...I am pretty sure I reposted this post by Dicentra maybe 
> even more than once. It is called "Dumbledore wrote book 1"
> Personally I found her points to be spot on and see no way around  
> them.
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/33289
> Actually, no that is not true. One of my best buddies on list       
> yesterday showed me a possible way around point number 9, but that 
> is about it for me so far :(
> Take a shot if you wish.

Betsy Hp: [never met a gauntlet she *didn't* want to pick 
up. "Because they're so sparkly!"]

Okay, I actually agree with Dicentra that Dumbledore wrote PS much as 
Lucius wrote CoS.  And PS turned out about as well for Dumbledore as 
CoS did for Lucius. <g>  Things go pear-shaped, the wrong stuff gets 
threatened, and both men loose a servant in the end. (Though 
Dumbledore is probably used to loosing DADA instructors by this 
point.)

I'll follow Dicentra's lead and go point by point.

> >>Dicentra:
> 1. It cannot be a coincidence that Harry was with Hagrid when he
> recovered the stone. Dumbledore sent Hagrid to collect Harry and get
> the stone at the same time.

Betsy Hp:
Agreed.  But why?  So that Harry develops an insatiable curiosity 
about Hagrid's mysterious package, takes out a newspaper subscription 
(very normal eleven year old boy behavior <g>), and ignoring all the 
fantastic magic around him fixates on the package Hagrid picked up a 
month or so ago?  Hardly.

Dumbledore sent Hagrid to get the Stone on the same day he was set to 
wander about Diagon Alley with the attention grabbing "Harry Potter! 
Boy Who Lived!!" so that anyone with the wrong sort of curiosity 
would take note of Hagrid's second errand.  Dumbledore was drawing 
the attention of the would-be thief *away* from the Flamels and 
towards one of the most powerful wizards in the WW.  Himself.

> >>Dicentra:
> 2. It is also no coincidence that the stone was retrieved the day
> Quirrell broke into Gringotts. Dumbledore must have known what had
> happened to Quirrell in Albania and what Voldemort was up to. He
> brought the stone to Hogwarts to protect it, yes, but he also knew
> Voldemort would follow it. Perfect opportunity to let Harry        
> confront him.

Betsy Hp:
Ooh, *major* leap here.  Suddenly we're supposed to believe that 
Dumbledore *knew* Voldemort was residing in the back of Quirrell's 
head?  Some canon would be nice.  Something to explain why Dumbledore 
threw away his best under-cover spy, Snape (again, as per 
Dumbledore's view, "complete trust" and all that) yet somehow without 
feeling that he'd thrown Snape away.  (How stupid is Dumbledore 
supposed to be again?)

There are two ways to explain the coincidence: (1) JKR needed to drop 
a clue for the reader here.  (2)Hagrid picked up the Stone as soon as 
Dumbledore got word that the defenses of Gringotts were being tested: 
a race that Dumbledore won.

Frankly, especially considering that this was also Harry's birthday, 
I'm going with author-convenient coincidence. (With the author being 
JKR at this point.)  Just as Draco conveniently skulked by the very 
window the Trio were looking out of in the beginning of HBP.  
Sometimes stories demand a coincidence.

> >>Dicentra:
> 3. As has been mentioned, the Mirror of Erised was the only real
> protection the stone had. Quirrell and Voldemort would have no     
> problem getting through the other kinds of "protection" surrounding 
> the stone (though it did slow them down some). The mirror was kind 
> of a monkey trap--you can't pull your hand out until you let go of 
> the fruit--that Voldemort could never foil.

Betsy Hp:
Or any Death Eater for that matter.  I absolutely agree that the 
mirror was a monkey trap.  All of the other "obstacles" were there to 
whet the appetite.  Oh, and cunningly give the entire Hogwarts staff 
a big pointy, flashy sign showing where exactly the Stone was 
hidden.  (Wouldn't want a dangerous Death Eater wandering around 
Hogwarts looking for the hiding place, would we? <g>)  And just to be 
sure, Dumbledore gave his big "avoid the third floor!  That's right, 
the *third* *floor*!!" announcement.

I still don't see any reason to think Dumbledore was expecting 
*Voldemort* himself to get trapped.  But I do think he was preparing 
for an intelligent, powerful, and at this point unknown Death Eater 
to enter the scene.  Hence the desire to capture, not kill nor deter.

> >>Dicentra:
> 4. Dumbledore gave Harry the Cloak of Invisibility for Christmas,
> telling him to "use it wisely." What could that mean except "go
> roaming about the school after hours to figure out this mystery"?

Betsy Hp:
Why not just, "use it wisely"?  I'm quite sure Dumbledore is a big 
supporter of letting children explore and learn things on their own 
as much as possible.  And I'm sure he knew Harry would sneak about 
the castle after hours.  But it doesn't mean he meant for Harry to go 
through the trap-door.  The cloak wouldn't get Harry past Hagrid's 
dog.  And the one time we *know* Dumbledore was aware of Harry using 
his cloak for less than legal purposes, Harry was protecting Hagrid.  
I'm sure Dumbledore would label that a wise use.  But it had nothing 
to do with the Stone.

> >>Dicentra:
> 5. It's therefore no coincidence that Harry found the Mirror of
> Erised. After Dumbledore tells Harry how the mirror works, he says
> "The Mirror will be moved to a new home tomorrow, Harry, and I ask 
> you not to go looking for it again. If you ever do run across it,   
> you will now be prepared." At the time, Harry probably thought the 
> last sentence meant that he wouldn't waste away in front of it, but 
> I think he was referring to the confrontation with Voldemort. (And, 
> by the way, the stone was probably in the mirror the whole time    
> (even before Christmas?), "unprotected" by the other spells.)

Betsy Hp:
Again, this is a leap.  For one thing, Harry didn't need to learn how 
to "work" the mirror to get the Stone at the end of PS.  The mirror 
just did its thing.  The only good that came out of Dumbledore's 
little talk with Harry is that Harry knew *why* he was the one to 
find the Stone.  But it didn't do anything to *help* Harry find the 
Stone.  So in that sense, it was a waste of an effort on Dumbledore's 
part.

But for another, JKR puts in a scene where Harry and Ron sit at a 
fairly small table with Dumbledore and discuss the mirror.  Harry is 
even showing signs of someone in the mirror's thrall.  So she gives 
us a reason for Dumbledore to confront Harry later that night.  If 
she wanted Dumbledore's talk to be linked to a plot to ready Harry to 
go through the trap-door, there was no need to give Dumbledore a 
reason for showing up.  It'd have been a part of the mystery.

So, Dumbledore talking to Harry about resisting the mirror's pull 
isn't written as mysterious, and it isn't necessary.  So I don't 
think there's a hidden purpose behind it.  It is what it is.

> >>Dicentra:
> 6. Some have suggested, with reason, that the tests required the
> cooperation of all three to pass and were deliberately set up this
> way. The only test that didn't have this quality was the troll,    
> which Dumbledore knew would have been defeated by Quirrell before   
> Harry met up with it.

Betsy Hp:
The big problem with this idea is that if Harry hadn't brought Ron 
and Hermione along (or if they hadn't insisted on going with him) 
Harry wouldn't have been stopped, he'd have been killed.  Odd sort of 
test isn't it?  It's not looking for Hermione's and Ron's flaws so 
that Dumbledore can break Harry away from unworthy friends if need 
be.  If Hermione and Ron aren't worthy, Harry *dies*.  How is that 
sane?

Instead, I think Dumbledore sets up a guantlet that is *just* 
challenging enough (especially because of the various skills needed) 
to encourage the thief to go deeper and deeper into the trap.  It 
*looks* like Dumbledore has set up a series of protections, so when 
the thief finally hits the mirror, he's going to stick around for a 
while and try and solve the puzzle.  He cannot realize immediately 
that it's a trap, or he might flee.

That the Trio are able to solve the puzzles themselves is a tribute 
to their combined skills, but it's also a necessity on JKR's part.  
She's not going to kill any of them off.  It's why none of the Death 
Eaters managed to kill the children at the DoM battle in OotP.

> >>Dicentra:
> 7. That the test was ultimately meant for Harry alone is shown in
> Snape's potions test. Only one person can make it through to the
> mirror. Dumbledore counted on that one person being Harry. (If no   
> one was meant to get to the stone, ALL the vials would contain     
> poison.)

Betsy Hp:
First off, the mirror wasn't really a *test* for Harry.  Certainly 
not one Dumbledore needs Harry to go through.  He's already seen 
Harry in front of the mirror.  Why would he need for Harry to go in 
front of it again?  While standing next to a Death Eater or Voldemort?

Second, that only one person can go through Snape's puzzle makes more 
sense if you think of the mirror as a Death Eater trap.  Quirrell is 
too young to have been recruited by Voldemort, so he must have 
*someone* running him.  Who is it?  Quirrell refused to tell Snape 
who it was (their conversation about Quirrell's loyalties), but 
surely the Death Eater behind Quirrell would go through the fire 
himself to fetch the Stone.  Death Eaters' love of glory being what 
it is.  And that's the person Dumbledore wanted to expose and catch.  
I don't think anyone realized Quirrell's master was Voldemort 
himself, riding on the back of Quirrell's head.

> >>Dicentra:
> 8. Dumbledore was counting on Harry to figure out where the stone  
> was and who was after it. When Harry asks him later about the fate 
> of Nicolas Flamel, he brightens up: "Oh, you know about Nicolas?"   
> said Dumbledore, sounding quite delighted. "You *did* do the thing
> properly, didn't you?" The "thing" was the mystery Dumbledore had   
> set up for Harry.

Betsy Hp:
Or the mystery that Harry involved himself in.  That Dumbledore is 
pleased that Harry did it so well is hardly surprising.  But it 
doesn't show that Dumbledore *meant* for Harry to get involved.  "I'd 
hoped you'd learn about him!" or "How wonderful that you picked up on 
all of the clues!" would do more to point to Harry falling into 
Dumbledore's plans.  Instead Dumbledore is only showing pleasure in 
Harry having done a good job, not saying he'd sneakily pushed Harry 
into the job in the first place.

> >>Dicentra:
> 9. It's possible that Dumbledore was not fooled in the least by the
> fake MoM message, instead understanding that Quirrell was making his
> move. He "leaves" Hogwarts, but he probably doesn't go far. (He    
> tells Harry that he makes it as far as London, but I wonder...) As 
> Hermione later recounts "we were dashing up to the owlery to        
> contact Dumbledore when we met him in the entrance hall--he already 
> knew--he just said, 'Harry's gone after him, hasn't he?' and       
> hurtled off to the third floor."

Betsy Hp:
If the mirror was a trap, it stands to reason that some sort of alarm 
would sound to alert Dumbledore that the trap had been sprung.  
Whether the message was fake or not, Dumbledore would have realized 
that he was (paraphrasing) "needed back at Hogwarts".

If the mirror was a test for Harry, it was very silly of Dumbledore 
to not be around to *observe* Harry's reactions to the test.  
(Really, if it were a test, there should have been a one-way-mirror 
somewhere, with Dumbledore and Snape and McGonagall in white lab-
coats and clip boards watching the Trio's progress.)

That Dumbledore was able to leap to the conclusion that Harry had 
gone after the Stone himself isn't a big stretch of the imagination.  
Especially now that we know about Patronus as communication device 
(McGonagall sends a little message regarding Harry's knowledge about 
the Stone), and after we've seen Dumbledore react pretty quickly to 
just learned information.  (Marietta and the DA club in OotP.)  
Dumbledore is very good at making rather clever leaps.

> >>Dicentra:
> 10. Ron then asks, "D'you think he meant you to do it? Sending you
> your father's cloak and everything?" Harry responds (after         
> Hermione's obligatory horrified reaction), "I think he sort of     
> wanted to give me a chance. I think he knows more or less          
> everything that goes on here, you know. I reckon he had a pretty   
> good idea we were going to try, and instead of stopping us, he just 
> taught us enough to help. I don't think it was an accident he let  
> me find out how the mirror worked. It's almost like he thought I   
> had the right to face Voldemort if I could...." I don't think this 
> is Harry?s personal interpretation. I think this is JKR's message   
> to the reader. 

Betsy Hp:
But Harry is already wrong in at least one point.  There was no 
purpose to him knowing how the mirror worked.  The mirror worked with 
or without Harry knowing about it.  Harry's knowledge changed nothing.

Still, many people do take Harry's version of Dumbledore as JKR's 
version.  But if that is so, then she's writing an ESE!Dumbledore and 
I just can't get behind that idea.  I can see why JKR might play coy 
with our take on Dumbledore in the beginning.  But if she seriously 
wants us to fully understand Dumbledore, and to like him, then she 
has to be clear that Hermione's reaction was the correct one.

I do think Dumbledore set the entire plot of PS in motion.  But I 
think that, like OotP, Dumbledore was up to something on one level 
(the adult level, if you will) and had no idea Harry would get 
involved.  He (as usual) underestimated Harry's curiosity and 
tenacity.  Dumbledore did not expect Harry to go through the trap-
door.

Betsy Hp (whew!)