Snape, a Deatheater.

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 163945

 
> Nikkalmati
> Yes, but she does want to play fair and make it possible for us to 
figure  it 
> out or at least to understand once it is revealed.  She doesn't 
want the  
> reader to say to her/himself after DH "well, if I had only known 
that . . .  "

Magpie:
But she does often want the reader to say that. She writes stories 
of re-cognition. We readers don't figure out that Quirrel has 
Voldemort on his head, or that Tom Riddle is the memory of Voldemort 
possessing Ginny, or that Sirius was framed by Scabbers, who is 
really Peter, or that Moody is really Crouch. We learn it in a 
surprising moment and that changes what we've seen before.  There 
are some things that many readers do figure out--though probably 
based more on story things than hard evidence in the plot. Rowling 
isn't afraid of an "If only I had only known that..." She loves 
those.

When Snape's motivations are revealed in Book VII his motivations in 
Spinner's End will also be clear. Since there's no revelation about 
them at the end of HBP we have to wait until we know for sure. Some 
people may be proved right, but I don't think that answer is given 
in HBP.


> >Magpie:
> <snip>. There's tragic irony to the scene  
> >regardless of whether Snape knows the task. What makes it comical 
to  
> me if he doesn't is that every line of Snape's in the scene is 
> really  saying, "Um, what are we talking about, exactly? Could 
> somebody give me a  hint?" The tragic irony is lost on Snape 
himself, 
> because he as yet has no  idea what it is he's agreed to do. He's 
got 
> to wait a while before that  dramatic moment comes--and when it 
does 
> we never see it. I find it hard to  believe Rowling would write a 
> tragic story all about somebody agreeing to do  something terrible 
> without realizing it and then forget to write the moment  where 
the 
> person has that terrible realization.
>  
> Nikkalmati
> If we saw that moment, we would know his true loyalties wouldn't  
we?

Magpie:
As you yourself said, she plays fair. If Snape took the Vow to find 
out what Draco was given to do, JKR would write that arc for Snape. 
She may put in beats that we misinterpret (If only I had known...) 
but what's described here sounds more like flat-out cheating, which 
makes it no fun to read in retrospect. Not only do we not see the 
moment where Snape realizes he's *accidentally* agreed to kill 
Dumbledore or die (much as Jerry Seinfeld accidentally agreed to 
wear the Puffy Shirt on TV), we would at least need to have some 
sign of it in the text. Where does Snape learn this truth, 
realistically? If we don't get the moment where we see Snape learn 
the truth we need (according to the way I've seen Rowling write over 
the years) some event we can later identify as the thing that caused 
him to learn it, and a change in his behavior after this thing has 
occurred. There would also be moments in Spinner's End, imo, that 
pointed to the truth. Reading it over thinking that Snape doesn't 
really know what he's talking about, I'm just not seeing them.

> Nikkallmati
>  
> Yes, I agree, because by the Christmas party, Katie has been 
injured and DD  
> and Snape have figured out the target is DD.  They may have 
figured it out  
> the first time they put their heads together in the summer, but of 
course, we  
> can't see that or we would know SS is loyal to DD.

Magpie:
So then Snape isn't trying to find out what the task is from Malfoy. 
That's never his motivation. It's only his motivation in Spinner's 
End, where his actions in no way advanced that motivation. He found 
out the task in a far more reasonable way, by thinking about things 
for five minutes. The motivation of trying to find out the task only 
exists to explain one scene and the fallout from it (I agreed to do 
WHAT???) somehow doesn't show at all. Storywise, this is why it's so 
weak, imo. The only thing it does for Snape's story is to make it so 
that he isn't actually agreeing to kill Dumbledore. It makes it seem 
to me as if he agreed to the Vow just to help the plot along.

Magpie:
 
Snape's line here does not have to be a complete lie just because of
LV's orders as shown on the Tower. Snape's full line is to say
that "He" means Snape to do "it" in "the end," but that he means for
Draco to "try first." In the unlikely event Draco succeeds, Snape
can stay at Hogwarts a while longer, Snape says. It would be totally
in character for LV to like the idea of Dumbledore being killed by
Snape to drive home the betrayal and Dumbledore's mistake at
trusting Snape. Only Snape and Voldemort are privvy to Voldemort's
feelings about Snape as a double agent. Snape could very well
understand correctly that killing Dumbledore is something he wants
Snape to do *in the end*.

> Nikkalmati
> If LV thought SS could kill DD, he would have him do it 
immediately.   In 
> fact, SS's excuse for not killing Harry is that DD stands in the 
way.   DD is 
> LV's greatest stumbling block.  With DD out of the way, there is  
little need for 
> a spy at Hogwarts.  If SS stood in the Great Hall and AK'd  DD, or 
even 
> leaned over and poisoned his mead, Hogwarts would probably be  
closed. Snape here 
> is making up a reason to Narcissa's why he can't do the  task for 
Draco.   

Magpie:
You don't have the authority to say that "if LV thought SS could 
kill DD, he would have him do it immediately."  There's nothing I 
read in the text that makes me believe I have to assume LV would 
never order Snape to kill DD. Snape obviously can do it, Bella and 
Narcissa both think he can do it. Snape himself claims to Bella and 
Narcissa that Voldemort expects him to do it and nobody challenges 
him.

The reason Snape gives for not killing Harry when Bellatrix asks him 
directly is to say that Dumbledore was the only thing keeping Snape 
out of prison, and killing DD's favorite student would lose Snape 
that protection. He also says that he wanted to see if Harry was 
really the next Dark Lord as some believed, but when he realized he 
wasn't he still wouldn't risk killing him with DD close at hand. 
Nothing about being unable to kill DD.

So he's not saying that DD "stands in the way." He's saying that DD 
offered him protection he didn't want to lose. He also explains that 
LV was ultimately *glad* that Snape didn't kill Harry, and there's 
no indication he's ordered Snape to kill Harry since coming back to 
life. (Now that LV is back he gives the orders.) Snape himself 
claims that "Potter belongs to the Dark Lord." So I'm not seeing 
where my interpretation of their situation couldn't be true. 
Bellatrix and Narcissa believe it fine. 
 
> >Magpie
> > That, in any event, is what he is saying to Bellatrix and  
Narcissa, 
> who do know what the task is. He's telling them that Voldemort  
> intends for Snape to eventually be the person who kills 
Dumbledore, 
> but  that he is still demanding that Draco try to kill him first. 
He 
> understands  that his killing Dumbledore will spell the end of his 
> time at Hogwarts. If  he's truly working blindfolded here, he's 
> pinned the tail right on the  donkey. It's a good thing Draco's 
task 
> really did fit all that. That's part  of the oddness of Snape in 
the 
> scene if he's gathering information-scene if he's gathering informa
> instead of letting anyone else fill things  in.
>  
> Nikkalmati
> Whatever Draco's task is, if Snape does it first, he can 
anticipate it will  
> reveal his loyal to LV and require him to leave Hogwarts.

Magpie:
Not necessarily. There are tasks that Draco could be given to do 
that could potentially be done by Snape without revealing his 
loyalties.  

Nikkalmati:
If DD is dead,  he 
> isn't really needed at Hogwarts anyway.  Snape is not gathering  
information 
> here, how can he when he has told the witches he knows  
everything?  He has 
> reassured Bella, first, that he is trusted by the Dark  Lord 
enough to know the 
> plan.  He is now trying to comfort Narcissa and  assure her he 
will "help" 
> Draco.    He intends to place himself  in a position to get the 
information from 
> Draco later.

Magpie:
You have claimed that Snape took the Vow because he wants to know 
what Draco's task is. That is his goal. This therefore needs to be 
*shown* to be his goal to us readers. If you look back at any 
characters' actions in the book, I think they will show that. 
Characters act in straightforward ways that we can follow. Sometimes 
they have conflicting motivations which confuse us, but only until 
we get all the information. Then we can see the conflict as well.

You've gotten around this using a manufactured cheat. Snape *isn't* 
fishing for information in the scene, you've agreed. You've said 
Snape can't fish for information because he's making them think he 
already knows everything. But pretending you know everything is a 
valid way of fishing for information! If his ultimate goal is to 
find this stuff out, why isn't he acting like the spy he is and 
acting like he knows everything to *manipulate* them into giving him 
information? And if he's decided that he's just going to give up on 
trying to find out that information in this scene and make plans to 
try to get it out of Draco in future, there is--as ever--no reason 
for him to take the Vow! He doesn't need to take this Vow and agree 
to do the task himself to pump Draco later. He's got enough to go 
on. In fact, he doesn't even need to pump Draco later. He can just 
drop in on Dumbledore the next day, tell him what he's heard, and 
they'll easily deduce together what the task is.

If the point of the Vow is finding out what Draco is up to, I think 
it has to connect to that logically and I don't see that it does.

> >Magpie:
> <snip> 
> >If  Snape's goal is to find out what Draco's task is, his 
behavior 
> should show  that in Spinner's End. Yet his behavior in Spinner's 
End 
> doesn't show  getting information as a priority. At one point he 
even 
> literally stops  someone from giving him the information he so 
> desperately wants! If he's  bluffing he's completely forgotten to 
do 
> so in a way that draws out  information from the other people. The 
> only place in the scene where he's  allegedly actively doing 
> something to find out the secret is where he takes  the Vow...an 
> action that isn't related to getting a secret at all. Why would  
> agreeing to do some undisclosed thing on pain of death reveal to 
you  
> what the undisclosed thing is? It doesn't. It's only after he 
takes 
> the  Vow that Snape has to start frantically trying to get Draco 
to 
> tell him what  he's been told to do--he apparently didn't manage 
to 
> get it out of Narcissa  and Bellatrix even after he took the Vow. 
> The Vow as an attempt to find out  information is never referenced 
> again. 
>  
> Nikkalmati
>  
> See above.  He is not trying to get information at Spinners End, 
it  would 
> look really suspicious if he were to try to pump the sisters at 
this  point.  He 
> stops Narcissa from telling at the very beginning to keep her  
from being 
> reported to LV by Bella. 

Magpie:
Snape has the upper hand here; and even if he didn't I don't think 
it would look suspicious--any DE would be pumping them. Narcissa is 
about to blurt out the information to Snape. Snape is supposed to 
seriously want this information, yet he jumps in to stop her. And 
the reason is that suddenly he's worried that she's going to be 
reported by Bellatrix for telling? I'm not getting Bellatrix as that 
kind of threat from the text. Snape's shutting Narcissa up gets a 
rather childish satisfaction out of Bellatrix ("Even Snape says you 
shouldn't tell!"), which doesn't help the impression. snape doesn't 
save Narcissa anyway--Bellatrix could still report her for 
undermining Voldemort's plans by going to Snape. (Of course, she 
herself might get in trouble for being the Binder, which is all the 
more reason to wonder if Bellatrix would really want to tell 
Voldemort about this meeting.) All in all protecting Narcissa from 
Bellatrix doesn't seem like a pressing problem in the scene when I 
read it.

Nikkalmalti:
 Then, he realizes this is a big  opportunity (turns to 
> look out the window, turns back with his plan in  place).  If he 
already knows 
> and he can convince Bella he knows, Bella will  not report 
Narcissa and he 
> can get the information out of Draco later without  endangering 
Narcissa. (I 
> don't think Bella is in the position to go to LV and  say "I can't 
believe you 
> told Snape".  That would be a serious breach of  Evil Overlord 
etiquette).  

Magpie:
So after he lets go his golden opportunity to find out what he wants 
to know (sacrificed to his more important motivation of making sure 
that Narcissa has nothing to be reported to LV for...except coming 
to Snape at all and the request of Snape she's about to make), he 
now thinks that if he pretends to know he can get information out of 
Draco later. Why Draco later? If he pretends to know he can get 
information out of Bellatrix and Narcissa *now* with the same 
protection to Narcissa. 

If it's a breach of etiquette to say "I can't believe you told 
Snape" Snape could have let Narcissa finish, THEN say he already 
knew about the plan, and everything's fine. Snape would be doing 
exactly what he's already doing in the scene, except he'd actually 
know what he was talking about--and presumably wouldn't take the Vow.

> Nikkalmati
> See above.  They bot figured it out pretty  quickly.

Magpie:
With no need whatsoever for the UV, and terrible, easily forseeable 
consequences because of it. Makes me wonder why Snape couldn't 
figure it out pretty quickly back at the house, since he's working 
with the same information.

> Nikkalmati
>  
> I don't see how my theory changes anything about why Snape killed 
DD.   If 
> anything, taking the UV without knowing he was promising to kill 
DD makes it  
> less about Snape.  Knowing the UV was to kill DD, requires a lot 
of  explaining 
> <g>.

Magpie:
It doesn't change anything officially, because as of yet we don't 
know why he killed DD. But you're right--knowing the UV was to kill 
DD requires a lot of explaining. That's a good thing. Because the 
explaining is the story. Taking the UV without knowing what he was 
promising explains things away. We don't have to ask why Snape would 
do such a thing, because he didn't. And yet still, the explanation 
of why he'd take any Vow, given its deadly nature, seems to me to 
require something more than a passing idea that gained nothing for 
him, and never promised to. 

> Nikkalmati
> Yes, DD and Snape figure out the task early on and Snape is trying 
to find  
> out the details from Draco or by following him.  (BTW I still 
wonder why  Draco 
> thought a necklace was a suitable gift for DD.) 

Magpie:
I guess it might not have mattered that it was suitable. If DD got a 
gift and saw a necklace inside he might touch it regardless of 
whether he's ever wear it. The mead he would have to drink, the 
necklace he just had to touch once. Sort of like sending someone a 
bomb.

Nikkimalti:
 Clearly, JKR doesn't  want 
> every one of her readers to understand that Snape is DDM.  She 
appears  in 
> interviews to be disappointed that anyone believes in Snape.  Her 
story  depends 
> on ambiguity in the character, but she also has to play fair and 
leave  us 
> clues.

Magpie:
I agree. I'm just not seeing any clues to this motivation in taking 
the Vow. It seems only there to make Snape look superficially bad. 
Also it seems more of JKR's pattern to always come up with something 
that has two coherent explanations, with one just being more right 
than the other. (The wrong explanation often leaves out small 
things, even if they're just sudden movements or expressions. With 
the right explanation everything clicks into place.) This 
explanation doesn't encompass Snape's taking the Vow to kill DD, 
since he didn't know what he was taking, but the story doesn't need 
Snape's taking an unknown Vow for any reason. It just hangs out 
there on its own.

-m