[HPforGrownups] Re: Snape, a Deatheater./the best played chess game

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 164007

> Nikkalmati
>
> I cannot envision how she could let us see Snape's recognition moment
> without letting out his true loyalty.

Magpie:
If JKR couldn't envision it, then she wouldn't write it, imo. Because it's 
cheating. It's telling us after the fact that there was emotional stuff 
going on with Snape that doesn't track with what we saw. For instance, you 
said to Pippin that JKR never lets us into Snape's head, but that's not 
true. Snape has been known to tell us what's in his head--at the end of PoA, 
for instance. At the end of that book he tells us how he's felt, and about 
the Prank, and that informs the scenes we've seen before. One of JKR's 
greatest strengths--perhaps the greatest--is her ability to show you what's 
going on with a person very clearly and have it misinterpreted. It doesn't 
all happen off-stage.

In this scenario you're describing the biggest moment in Snape's arc in HBP 
goes nowhere. It doesn't fit anything strategic, since it doesn't help Snape 
find out what the task is (and the only place he actively tries to find out 
what the task is in some other way is off-screen), nor does it help him get 
in with Draco (with whom he should already be in), and it doesn't fit in 
emotionally, because JKR hasn't written anything pointing to that sudden 
recognition or the fallout from it.

> Nikkalmati
>
> I don't claim any authority here at all <g>.  However, logic  tells me 
> that
> if LV thought it was that easy to kill DD, he would just have  Snape do it 
> and
> get it over with.  Why play around?

Magpie:
Sorry, this is one of the things I don't buy with the "Draco told Voldemort 
about the Cabinets and Voldemort made that his plan, and then told him to 
kill DD on the side." Any theory that basically says, "If I were LV I'd 
think the canonical plan was illogical..." I go with what we're told in 
canon of LV's plan. Not only does no one in canon suggest that Snape killing 
DD can't ever be an option, several people in LV's camp state outright that 
it is. They don't say killing DD is *easy*--certainly it's not so easy a 
novice like Draco could do it. But there's nothing to indicate that LV 
wouldn't consider that his best man--the one who's been hoodwinking DD all 
these years--could give it a try.

Nikkalmati:
 Canon does  tell us Narcissa and Bella
> saw it as a suicide mission for Draco.  I don't  think Narcissa really 
> cares if
> Snape is killed in the attempt as long as Draco  is safe.  That's not what
> she says, of course.  It also might be a bit  embarrassing for LV to have 
> Snape
> kill DD and start the rumor that LV was afraid  to do it.  Note Narcissa
> blurts out "even the Dark Lord . . " and  is shushed by Bella.

Magpie:
Yes, she sees it as a suicide mission for Draco, and she would obviously 
sacrifice Snape in his place if somebody has to die trying. But everyone 
knowing that killing DD would be a huge challenge doesn't prove that LV 
couldn't ever have someone attempt it. Snape himself says he (Snape) has 
wanted Dumbledore alive for a reason that benefits himself.

> Nikkalmati
>
> Ok, pretending he knows everything is a way of finding things out.  He 
> does
> find out some things from the discussion, like it is a suicide mission and
> the Dark Lord himself . . . and that Narcissa thinks it is to punish 
> Lucius, and
> Bella would be glad for any of her sons to do it etc.  That is useful
> stuff.  But when he takes the Vow, he will have Narcissa telling Draco to
> cooperate with him.  He doesn't just want to know the task; he wants to 
> know the
> details, which Narcissa does not know.  Remember, Snape does not  think he 
> is
> vowing to do anything other than to help and protect Draco.  If  he swears 
> that,
> he thinks, Draco will let him in on all his little  secrets.  Right? 
> Well, not
> exactly how it turns out.

Magpie:
But Snape can get all of these things without taking the Vow. Snape's 
already an important figure in Draco's life--probably someone he would be 
more likely to go to for help than Narcissa at this stage of his life. Snape 
could also agree to Narcissa's terms without taking the Vow. He's the one 
with the power here. He's gotten all the information you described already. 
He doesn't have to put his life on the line for it after the fact. Even if 
he'd only sworn the first two parts he's taking quite a risk--but then 
there's that third Vow.

That, as was said elsewhere, seems to take a lot of explaining and "he 
didn't know what he was vowing to do" falls comically flat to me because 
what a silly thing to do! Nor am I comfortable with the magical explanation 
which says, "Once you've got the ropes you have to agree to everything a 
person might say" because it robs the Vow of the free will of the person 
making it. The Vow, to me, seems to just add a magical component to an 
actual Vow. Snape's hand-twitch, to me, indicates that he doesn't want to 
take that third Vow, but that he's covering that up. I think if he didn't 
know what he was vowing to do, we'd get more than that (I don't recall more, 
but I don't have the book with me), a pause where Snape would have to weigh 
whether this was a wise idea or not. There also tends to be a lot of 
reference to the third part of the Vow being a big surprise, but it's not a 
total shock. It is what Narcissa was asking him for all along.

>>Magpie:
>>So after he lets go his golden opportunity to find out  what he wants
>>to know (sacrificed to his more important motivation of  making sure
> that Narcissa has nothing to be reported to LV for...except  coming
> to Snape at all and the request of Snape she's about to make), he
> now thinks that if he pretends to know he can get information out of
> Draco later. Why Draco later? If he pretends to know he can get
> information out of Bellatrix and Narcissa *now* with the same
> protection  to Narcissa.
>
>
> Nikkalmati
>
> You have to read the scene in stages.  The very first thing that  happens 
> is
> Narcissa starts her tale, Bella warns her, and Snape agrees.  At  this 
> point
> Snape doesn't know he needs more information, or he has not figured  out 
> how to
> get it without endangering Narcissa.  Yes, by the time we get to  the UV,
> Bella is in too deep to betray them and that might be one minor reason 
> for the
> vow - to implicate Bella in the plot and prevent her from going to  LV.

Magpie:
None of these stages are indicated by anyone's behavior. In fact, the scene 
is really written along totally different lines. Bellatrix is already deep 
in by following Narcissa to Snape's house, she's already in a precarious 
position. Snape never shows any signs of these different motivations 
shifting around. It's again a similar problem that I have to many of the 
interpretations of Draco's arc in HBP--it comes down to lots of complicated 
changes of DE priorities that are invisible in the text that seem to work 
backwards from the theory that's being proven instead of deducing from 
what's there.

This just seems completely at odds with the way Rowling writes as I've read 
her. It's not that Snape can't want to protect Narcissa as much as he can in 
the scene. But it imo needs to fit into the whole scene smoothly, not just 
be incredibly important--important enough to override what's supposed to be 
his top priority, and then disappear a second later when it's not needed to 
explain any more lines.

Nikkalmati:>
> Lets turn this around.  If Snape knows all about Draco's task,  when 
> Narcissa
> turns up on his doorstep all upset, he would deduce why she was  there at 
> onc> e.  In that case, what possible reason does he have for telling  her 
> to be
> quiet?  He can turn immediately to Bella and admonish her that  Narcissa 
> is not
> betraying a confidence. Why stop her in the first  place?

Magpie:
That particular turnaround turned up a pretty weak flaw there. Snape's 
playing the part of the loyal DE throughout the scene, and shutting Narcissa 
up (out of loyalty) is an easy, perfectly in character thing for DE!Snape to 
do. It's exactly in character with the persona he has on that side. Snape is 
the authority figure in the scene. Admonishing Bellatrix is "siding" with 
Narcissa. He's not siding with her. He's establishing himself as the loyal 
DE here before he offers her some hope.

Unlike Clueless!Snape, Clued-in!Snape doesn't lose anything by putting off 
the discussion for a few seconds. He gets two things out of the moment 
instead of one (he can remind everyone of his DE loyalty and the power of 
his position). It's only Clueless!Snape who throws something away by 
shutting Narcissa up.

> Nikkalmati
>
> The purpose was to get in with Draco; there were no terrible easily
> forseeable consequences to what he thought he was going to promise; (I 
> agree  with
> Carol that once the process was started, he could not refuse or stop, or 
> if  he
> did, he, or even he and Narcissa, could die at once.)  I don't know how 
> long
> it took him to figure it out, but I don't think he had when he agreed to 
> take
> the UV and clasped Narcissa's hand.

Magpie:
So this is a new reason for Draco taking the Vow--he's not trying to find 
out what the task is, he's making the Vow because it's the way to get Draco 
to work with him. But since when does Snape need to go through Narcissa to 
get in with Draco? He's already in with him and has been for 5 years. The 
the UV doesn't do anything towards the purpose of getting in with Draco 
either. If we say that Snape couldn't have foreseen that Draco wouldn't 
appreciate the Vow because he wasn't prepared for Draco's change in 
attitude, it begs the question of why Snape would think he needed to work so 
hard to get Draco to work with him to begin with, since it's that same 
change in attitude that changed his relationship with Snape.

I don't see how you can say there weren't easily foreseeable bad 
consequences to what Snape *did* promise (to do the task himself). As I said 
above, I don't accept the explanation that he just couldn't stop once he 
started, because that takes away from this being a Vow that someone makes 
and just turns it into coercion. However, even if that is the idea, we're 
left with the bigger problem that this predicament that Snape's gotten 
himself into should then be his story in HBP and it isn't. (Your reason for 
this being that it would reveal his loyalties.)

Nikkalmati:
Veeery interesting.  If Snape thinks DD means him to do "it", that  means 
that Snape does know exactly what Draco's task is and that part of the 
eventual
plan is for Snape to kill DD (if everything goes south and it comes  down to 
the last possible choice?).

Magpie:
I brought up the same possibility, that Snape's "he" is Dumbledore, and that 
this doesn't even necessarily refer to the specific Draco plot. Snape the 
double agent could have surmised over the years that either Dumbledore or 
Voldemort saw Snape's killing Dumbledore as part of his plans. Though of 
course the moral problems with this on Dumbledore's part are obvious. (Since 
this is Snape's impression, it could be a mistaken one, but it certainly 
stuck out to me as a possibly ambiguous line.)

> Nikkalmati (maybe I'm wrong, but I think it is a viable theory; if he 
> knew,
> for me, DDM goes out the window)

Magpie:
Where as for me, that's the whole challenge of the story, and the reason to 
read book VII. The explanation that it was all a mistake takes away from HBP 
and isn't too exciting an answer. I'd rather go double or nothing with 
Rowling and assume she's going for the bigger challenge.

Bart:
Frankly, in OOP, I really expected a Slytherin to show up in the DA, and, 
when he joins his fellow Slytherins in poking fun at Ron, say something 
like, "Hey, Quidditch is a game. This is real life. Learn the
difference!" I still don't know of the lack of any lytherins joining
the DA was singificant, or just bad writing on JKR's part.

Magpie:
Bad writing? It seemed like she knew exactly what she was doing to me. 
Hermione was supposedly trying to listen to the hat's warnings about joining 
with other houses and instead she recreated the same schism the hat was 
singing about. She heard "join the houses" and automatically excluded 
Slytherin--just as Slytherin would have stayed away if we assume they knew 
about that first meeting. So you wound up with two groups, one Slytherin, 
one everyone else. (Harry, too, listens to the hat's talk of joining with 
Slytherin, looks at Malfoy and vows he would never work with him.)

I think Slytherin's pretty obviously the shadow house here, and it seems 
like JKR's plot is very much centered on how she's going to play Slytherin. 
I think the DA/IS was part of that.

-m (who's never made any secret of hiding her dislike of the "Good 
Slytherins join up with Harry" storyline)