Snape, a Deatheater.

[puduhepa98 at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 163996

>Magpie:
>But she does often want the reader to say that. She  writes stories 
of re-cognition. We readers don't figure out that Quirrel has  
Voldemort on his head, or that Tom Riddle is the memory of Voldemort  
possessing Ginny, or that Sirius was framed by Scabbers, who is 
really  Peter, or that Moody is really Crouch. We learn it in a 
surprising moment  and that changes what we've seen before. There 
are some things that many  readers do figure out--though probably 
based more on story things than hard  evidence in the plot. Rowling 
isn't afraid of an "If only I had only known  that..." She loves 
those.

>When Snape's motivations are revealed  in Book VII his motivations in 
Spinner's End will also be clear. Since  there's no revelation about 
them at the end of HBP we have to wait until we  know for sure. Some 
people may be proved right, but I don't think that  answer is given 
in HBP.
 
Nikkalmati
 
We have clues, of course, but I guess I am engaging in speculation while I  
wait <g>.

<snip>
>Magpie:
>As you yourself said,  she plays fair. If Snape took the Vow to find 
>out what Draco was given  to do, JKR would write that arc for Snape. 
She may put in beats that we  misinterpret (If only I had known...) 
but what's described here sounds more  like flat-out cheating, which 
makes it no fun to read in retrospect. Not  only do we not see the 
moment where Snape realizes he's *accidentally*  agreed to kill 
Dumbledore or die (much as Jerry Seinfeld accidentally agreed  to 
wear the Puffy Shirt on TV), we would at least need to have some 
sign  of it in the text. Where does Snape learn this truth, 
realistically? If we  don't get the moment where we see Snape learn 
the truth we need (according  to the way I've seen Rowling write over 
the years) some event we can later  identify as the thing that caused 
him to learn it, and a change in his  behavior after this thing has 
occurred. There would also be moments in  Spinner's End, imo, that 
pointed to the truth. Reading it over thinking that  Snape doesn't 
really know what he's talking about, I'm just not seeing  them.
 
Nikkalmati
 
I cannot envision how she could let us see Snape's recognition moment  
without letting out his true loyalty.  
 
Nikkalmait


>Magpie:
>So then Snape isn't trying to find  out what the task is from Malfoy. 
That's never his motivation. It's only his  motivation in Spinner's 
End, where his actions in no way advanced that  motivation. He found 
out the task in a far more reasonable way, by thinking  about things 
for five minutes. The motivation of trying to find out the task  only 
exists to explain one scene and the fallout from it (I agreed to do  
WHAT???) somehow doesn't show at all. Storywise, this is why it's so  
weak, imo. The only thing it does for Snape's story is to make it so  
that he isn't actually agreeing to kill Dumbledore. It makes it seem 
to  me as if he agreed to the Vow just to help the plot  along.


<snip> 

>Magpie:
>You don't have  the authority to say that "if LV thought SS could 
kill DD, he would have him  do it immediately.kill DD, he would ha
read in the text that makes me  believe I have to assume LV would 
never order Snape to kill DD. Snape  obviously can do it, Bella and 
Narcissa both think he can do it. Snape  himself claims to Bella and 
Narcissa that Voldemort expects him to do it and  nobody challenges 
him.

Nikkalmati
 
I don't claim any authority here at all <g>.  However, logic  tells me that 
if LV thought it was that easy to kill DD, he would just have  Snape do it and 
get it over with.  Why play around?   Canon does  tell us Narcissa and Bella 
saw it as a suicide mission for Draco.  I don't  think Narcissa really cares if 
Snape is killed in the attempt as long as Draco  is safe.  That's not what 
she says, of course.  It also might be a bit  embarrassing for LV to have Snape 
kill DD and start the rumor that LV was afraid  to do it.  Note Narcissa 
blurts out "even the Dark Lord . . " and  is shushed by Bella.
 
Nikkalmati
 
Magpie 
<snip>
 
Nikkalmati:
If DD is dead, he 
> isn't really needed at Hogwarts  anyway. Snape is not gathering 
information 
> here, how can he when he  has told the witches he knows 
everything? He has 
> reassured Bella,  first, that he is trusted by the Dark Lord 
enough to know the 
> plan.  He is now trying to comfort Narcissa and assure her he 
will "help" 
>  Draco. He intends to place himself in a position to get the 
information from  
> Draco later.

>Magpie:
>You have claimed that Snape took  the Vow because he wants to know 
>what Draco's task is. That is his goal.  <snip>. You've said 
>Snape can't fish for information because he's  making them think he 
already knows everything. But pretending you know  everything is a 
valid way of fishing for information! If his ultimate goal  is to 
find this stuff out, why isn't he acting like the spy he is and  
acting like he knows everything to *manipulate* them into giving him  
information? And if he's decided that he's just going to give up on  
trying to find out that information in this scene and make plans to 
try  to get it out of Draco in future, there is--as ever--no reason 
for him to  take the Vow! He doesn't need to take this Vow and agree 
to do the task  himself to pump Draco later. He's got enough to go 
on. In fact, he doesn't  even need to pump Draco later. He can just 
drop in on Dumbledore the next  day, tell him what he's heard, and 
they'll easily deduce together what the  task is.

Nikkalmati
 
Ok, pretending he knows everything is a way of finding things out.  He  does 
find out some things from the discussion, like it is a suicide mission and  
the Dark Lord himself . . . and that Narcissa thinks it is to punish Lucius, and 
 Bella would be glad for any of her sons to do it etc.  That is useful  
stuff.  But when he takes the Vow, he will have Narcissa telling Draco to  
cooperate with him.  He doesn't just want to know the task; he wants to  know the 
details, which Narcissa does not know.  Remember, Snape does not  think he is 
vowing to do anything other than to help and protect Draco.  If  he swears that, 
he thinks, Draco will let him in on all his little  secrets.  Right?  Well, not 
exactly how it turns out.    
 
<snip>


>Magpie:
>Snape has the upper hand here; and even if he  didn't I don't think 
>it would look suspicious--it would look suspicious--<WBR>any DE would 
>about to blurt out the information to Snape.  Snape is supposed to 
seriously want this information, yet he jumps in to  stop her. And 
the reason is that suddenly he's worried that she's going to  be 
reported by Bellatrix for telling? I'm not getting Bellatrix as that  
kind of threat from the text. Snape's shutting Narcissa up gets a 
rather  childish satisfaction out of Bellatrix ("Even Snape says you 
shouldn't  tell!"), which doesn't help the impression. snape doesn't 
save Narcissa  anyway--Bellatrix could still report her for 
undermining Voldemort's plans  by going to Snape. (Of course, she 
herself might get in trouble for being  the Binder, which is all the 
more reason to wonder if Bellatrix would really  want to tell 
Voldemort about this meeting.) All in all protecting Narcissa  from 
Bellatrix doesn't seem like a pressing problem in the scene when I  
read it.
 
>Magpie:
>So after he lets go his golden opportunity to find out  what he wants 
>to know (sacrificed to his more important motivation of  making sure 
that Narcissa has nothing to be reported to LV for...except  coming 
to Snape at all and the request of Snape she's about to make), he  
now thinks that if he pretends to know he can get information out of  
Draco later. Why Draco later? If he pretends to know he can get  
information out of Bellatrix and Narcissa *now* with the same 
protection  to Narcissa. 


Nikkalmati
 
You have to read the scene in stages.  The very first thing that  happens is 
Narcissa starts her tale, Bella warns her, and Snape agrees.  At  this point 
Snape doesn't know he needs more information, or he has not figured  out how to 
get it without endangering Narcissa.  Yes, by the time we get to  the UV, 
Bella is in too deep to betray them and that might be one minor reason  for the 
vow - to implicate Bella in the plot and prevent her from going to  LV.  
 
Lets turn this around.  If Snape knows all about Draco's task,  when Narcissa 
turns up on his doorstep all upset, he would deduce why she was  there at onc
e.  In that case, what possible reason does he have for telling  her to be 
quiet?  He can turn immediately to Bella and admonish her that  Narcissa is not 
betraying a confidence. Why stop her in the first  place?
 
Nikkalmati
 


<snip>.

>Magpie:
>With no need whatsoever for  the UV, and terrible, easily forseeable 
consequences because of it. Makes me  wonder why Snape couldn't 
figure it out pretty quickly back at the house,  since he's working 
with the same  information.


<snip>

Nikkalmati
 
The purpose was to get in with Draco; there were no terrible easily  
forseeable consequences to what he thought he was going to promise; (I agree  with 
Carol that once the process was started, he could not refuse or stop, or if  he 
did, he, or even he and Narcissa, could die at once.)  I don't know how  long 
it took him to figure it out, but I don't think he had when he agreed to  take 
the UV and clasped Narcissa's hand.
 
Nikkalmati (maybe I'm wrong, but I think it is a viable theory; if he knew,  
for me, DDM goes out the window)




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