Creating Horcruxes (Re: Harry as Horcrux)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 164055

Mike wrote: <snip>
Mike wrote:
<snip>
> Therefore, my straight forward reading is that when a soul piece is
*ripped* from the main piece it escapes, it goes away, there is
nothing to hold it in proximity to it's former self. If a spell hasn't
been cast before the *ripping* occured, it's too late after. <snip>

Carol responds:
We don't know whether the soul bit(s) from Lily's murder (and any
other murders that weren't used for Horcruxes) didn't remain with the
main soul that was all that remained of Voldemort. They may have done
so. There's no canon at all on that subject, so there's nothing to do
a straightforward reading of. 

If, however, they did split away from the main soul, there was nothing
to anchor them to earth, unlike the main soul, which is anchored to
earth by the Horcruxes. The Horcruxes wouldn't anchor the loose soul
bits, or it would be impossible to release soul bits from a Horcrux
and de-Hocruxify it. Where would the loose soul bits go? Surely they
wouldn't float around in the air seeking a person to possess, or
they'd have gone into Harry and *possessed* him. And yet we know from
OoP that he isn't possessed (except briefly and futilely in the MoM).
We also haven't heard of anyone being possessed by a stray soul bit
(the bit that possessed Ginny isn't stray). 

The logical place for a loose soul bit to go, whether its released
from the main soul at GH or released from a Horcrux, is beyond the
Veil, the eternal home of the soul as far as I can determine from the
books. If a preparatory spell were required, it would have been
performed on an object, not on Harry. The idea was to kill him, thwart
the Prophecy, and use his death to create a last Horcrux, not make him
into a Horcrux. (Had Voldemort cast any such spell on Harry, he would
know it, and the last thing he'd want to do is kill his own Horcrux.)
 Your preparatory spell and Harry as accidental Horcrux just don't go
together.

Mike:
I think a soul piece, once seperated from the whole, will depart the
scene and attempt to cross over. Once that has happened, it's too
late, time and space matter in magic, remember?

Carol:
Funny. That's what I think, too. Voldemort wasn't planning to be
vaporized and release any soul bits. He was planning to stay alive and
use the soul bit from Harry's murder, his most recent and therefore
most easily accessible, to make his last Horcrux. But he was thwarted
in that and much else by the deflected AK. (I don't see what time and
space mattering in magic has to do with it. You kill a person, you
split your soul. The soul bit remains with you until you have a proper
receptacle, preferably something durable and powerfully magical, at
which time you encase the soul bit. Time has nothing to do with it
because the soul is eternal, and space isn't a problem because you
have the object in sight when you cast the encasement spell.)
> 
Mike:
> Straight forward reading of how to make a Horcrux: You bring an 
> object with you to encase your soul piece, enchant yourself and the 
> object, then commit the murder which rips your soul. No "saving the 
> ripped soul piece" for later encasement. How does that jibe with a 
> straight forward reading? Where in Slughorn's limited explanation 
> does one interpret the ability to create a Horcrux at some time in 
> the future? 

> So at GH, Voldemort killed Lily and thereby activated the *love 
> protection*. He then brings out his valuable object (whatever he was 
> intending to use as a Horcrux) and performs the Horcrux creation 
> spell, designating himself as the soul piece donor and marking the 
> object as the soul piece recepticle. <snip>

Carol: You keep calling your reading straightforward, but you're
actually just assuming, based on your theory of Horcrux creation. Once
again, there is no canonical reference to a preparatory spell.

Mike:
 When his AK rebounds off of Harry and *murders* his own self, his
soul is split. (He wasn't in combat, he had no defense against his own
AK). 

Carol:
I think that murder requires intention. Also, Voldie didn't die. I can
see a stray soul piece from Lily's death, but not from his own.
However, I've already stated that I think the stray soul piece(s) will
have gone beyond the Veil or wherever the souls of the evil dead go in
the Potterverse.

Mike:
Was he intending to  make *Harry* into a Horcrux? I'll answer that
with the question: Was he intending to *kill* himself that night? Not
just no, but Hell No.

Carol:
If you substitute "vaporize himself" for "kill himself," I agree with
you here 100 percent.

Mike: 
> Why didn't the soul piece transfer into Voldie's designated object? 
> **I Don't Know.** Maybe the object was destroyed, maybe the *mark*
on Harry was a more powerful pull than the marked object. <snip>

Carol responds:
Or maybe there was no such object. 

BTW, Dumbledore thinks that Voldemort made Nagini into a Horcrux with
the murder of Frank Bryce. Had Voldemort already prepared her,
expecting to kill Frank? Highly unlikely. Or had he prepared her
expecting to use Harry's death and used Frank's instead? Why not wait
until his body is restored, then prepare Nagini, then kill Harry?
Surely, even LV isn't that illogical. Or maybe there's no preparatory
spell.

Carol, who thinks that Voldemort intended to obtain the Sword of
Gryffindor to make it into his last Horcrux *after* killing Harry,
Neville, and Dumbledore