CHAPDISC: HBP 29, The Phoenix Lament

[ibchawz]

No: HPFGUIDX 164074

Thanks for the excellent summary and thought provoking questions.

> 1. This chapter is a nice opportunity for JKR to show us a variety 
> of characters' reactions to the same emotional upheaval - 
> Dumbledore's death. Did any of their reactions particularly 
inspire 
> sympathy in you? Which character reacted most similarly to you? Is 
> that character one you normally sympathise or identify with? 

ibchawz responds:
I would have to say that Fawkes' reactions to the situation had the 
most profound impact on me.  It provided the strongest hint that 
Dumbledore's death was final.  On a personal level, I have 
experience something similar.  My cousin died at age 36 from 
cancer.  She had 3 dogs.  The dogs seemed to "know" that she was 
gone and appeared depressed for quite a while after this happened.


> 2. (Take off your DDM!Snape hats for this one, please.) In this 
> chapter, McGonagall and Tonks ask the same questions that fans 
have 
> been asking for years, namely: what did Snape tell Dumbledore to 
> make him trust him? Do you think, given Lupin, McGonagall and 
> Tonks's astonishment at Harry's story, that *even if Snape really 
> has* betrayed the Order and rejoined Voldemort, there still must 
> have been more than a `tale of remorse' to how he hoodwinked 
> Dumbledore? How do you think ESE!Snape (or similar variants) could 
> have convinced him? What themes that the books have already 
visited 
> would Snape's tale (and the fact that it was fake) resonate with, 
> and how could his ability to fool Dumbledore reflect upon Harry's 
> story?

ibchawz responds:
I really don't have to take off my "DDM!Snape (or any other flavor!
Snape) hat.  I am "on the fence" about what Snapes true loyalties 
are.  As far a convincing or hoodwinking  Dumbledore, Snape was a 
superb Occlumens.  He was able to hide his betraying thoughts from 
the greatest Legilimens (Voldemort).  Certainly he would be able to 
hide his true thoughts from Dumbledore as well.  If someone is a 
liar, and you know that they are, do you really know when (or even 
if) they are telling the truth?


> 3. Assuming Hermione's account of events in Snape's office is 
> accurate, what do you make of her and Luna's gullibility? Are you 
> annoyed that they didn't realise immediately that Snape had 
> stupefied Flitwick and try to stop him? Since Ron, Neville and 
Ginny 
> weren't much more use when confronted by the Peruvian Darkness 
> Powder, and only made it through the fight because of the Felix 
> Felicis, have your views on how useful the DA really was changed?

ibchawz responds:
I did not see Hermione and Luna as gullible.  I saw them as trusting 
a teacher and doing what they were told.  All through the series 
Hermione has tried to discount Harry's suspicions about Snape. 

I never saw the DA as a training ground for future Aurors.  I saw 
the DA as rebelling against Umbridge and her lack of teaching 
practial, hands-on DADA.  Many of the students were either 5th or 
7th years who needed the practice for their OWLs or NEWTs.



> 4. What do you make of McGonagall saying (of Snape) "He must have 
> known a spell we didn't [
] After all, he was the Defence against 
> the Dark Arts teacher?" We all know Snape had been teaching 
potions 
> for fifteen years before that, so what do you make of this sudden 
> respect for his knowledge of DADA? Do you think the teaching posts 
> confer something special on their holders? Does this give us any 
> clues as to why Voldemort particularly wanted to have the DADA 
job? 
> Or do you think McGonagall could be alluding in some way to the 
> curse?

ibchawz responds:
McGonagall was certainly aware of Snape's interest in the DADA post 
was probably aware of his history in the Dark Arts.  I don't really 
think that being in the postion of DADA professor confers any 
additional abilities to the professor.



> 5. Molly doesn't give one single sign that she cares at all that 
> Dumbledore's dead, she doesn't react when McGonagall assures 
Arthur 
> that it's true, nor does she ask Harry or the others if they're 
all 
> right; she only has eyes for Bill. Do you find that surprising? 
How 
> do you interpret her different reactions to the dramas at the ends 
> of CoS, GoF and HBP, and how do they reflect upon her assertion in 
> OotP that Harry is as good as her son? 

ibchawz responds:
I really think that Molly is in shock.  Her son has been disfigured 
and has an uncertain future.  When she finds out about Dumbledore, 
she is emotionally "numb" already.

  
> 6. In ch5 p92 (UK ed.) Molly says (of Bill and Fleur) "It was the 
> same last time he was powerful, people eloping right left and 
> centre –" yet Lupin seems here to be an exception, holding out 
> against this all-too-human reaction in times of war. Do you find 
> this consistent with his character? Given the close friends he has 
> lost, do you understand him wanting to keep Tonks at arm's length, 
> or do you agree with Molly that he's being ridiculous? How does 
his 
> behaviour regarding Tonks compare with Harry's later break-up with 
> Ginny?

ibchawz responds:
I didn't really think of this until you asked the question.  I 
always equated this to Harry' feelings for Sirius and the way that 
Voldemort used this against Harry.  He does not want this to happen 
with Ginny.  Now that I think about it, the Lupin-Tonks relationship 
is probably foreshadowing what will happen with Harry and Ginny.  
Even though Harry has told Ginny that he wants to break up, he still 
has feelings for her.  These feelings will still be readable by 
Voldemort unless Harry can quickly master Occlumency.  My guess is 
that Harry won't be able to do this.


  
> 7. Do you think that the fact that Dumbledore's portrait is 
sleeping 
> peacefully and looking untroubled is significant? If so, what do 
you 
> think it signifies, and if JKR had wanted to signify the opposite, 
> how do you think she would have done it? 

ibchawz responds:
When have the other portraits ever been sleeping as important things 
happened in the headmaster's office?  Does this mean the 
Dumbledore's portrait is really sleeping or is it faking it like 
most of the other portraits usually do?


> 8. What do you make of McGonagall's statement about closing the 
> school: "
 I must say that Professor Dumbledore's murder is more 
> disturbing to me than the idea of Slytherin's monster living 
> undetected in the bowels of the castle
" Do you find this 
statement 
> surprising? Do you agree with it? Do you think it might reflect 
the 
> fact that she was a student at Hogwarts the first time the Chamber 
> opened? Do you think it reflects JKR's opinion?

ibchawz responds:
I don't think the school will close.  With all the signs that the 
school houses must unite, this will not occur if the school is 
closed.  Closing the school has been mentioned as a possibility on 
several other occasions (Myrtle's death, COS re-opened, etc).  With 
the number of times that it has been threatened and not occurred, I 
treated as I would "the boy who cried wolf".


 
> 9. What do you make of Slughorn's reaction to Dumbledore's death, 
> his shock at Snape's culpability, his ambivalence about the school 
> reopening, and his seeming reluctance that the students should 
stay 
> for the funeral? How does this compare with his manner with 
> Dumbledore in chapter four? If the school reopens, do you think he 
> will stay on as potions master and head of Slytherin, and do you 
> think Dumbledore's death will affect his decision?

ibchawz responds:
I don't think Slughorn knew of Snape's history as much as some of 
the other characters.  He remembered Snape's excellent potion making 
abilities.  I think that Slughorn's main reason for retiring was to 
hide from Voldemort.  He felt that he was probably the only one that 
knew about Voldemort's horcruxes and did not want to give the real 
memory to Dumbledore.  With Dumbledore gone, Slughorn is the only 
other adult character the we have seen display knowledge of 
Horcruxes.  I really think that Slughorn will give Harry some 
critical info on finding and destroying the remaining Horcruxes.


> 10. Do you think Harry was right not to tell McGonagall where he 
> went with Dumbledore? Would you have had the courage (or 
> stubbornness) to do the same at his age? Do you think that he did 
> what Dumbledore would have wanted? McGonagall will almost 
certainly 
> ask Dumbledore's portrait where he took Harry when it wakes up; 
what 
> do you think it will tell her? Since all the portraits are sworn 
to 
> help the current head, do you think they will tell her about the 
> horcruxes? If they refused, do you think she has the potential to 
> turn into an Umbridge, or worse?

ibchawz responds:
I do think Harry was right not to confide in McGonagall.  Her 
personality is not one that invites it. On the other hand, I do not 
think she will become another Umbridge.  Her character never struck 
me as being power hungry like Umbridge.



> 11. Do you find it surprising that McGonagall didn't ask how Harry 
& 
> co. knew that Malfoy was in the room of requirement? Harry didn't 
> tell her what he knows about the Unbreakable Vow either (despite 
the 
> fact that it didn't have anything to do with the Horcruxes). Do 
you 
> think she will find out, and if she did how do you think she would 
> react? What story about Malfoy and Snape should Harry be able to 
> piece together from the information he has?

ibchawz responds:
I don't really find this surprising.  Harry had already expressed 
his suspicions about Malfoy to her when Katie Bell was cursed by the 
necklace.  She may have been feeling guilty about not taking Harry 
more seriously.



> 12. Hagrid is inconsolable; did you find his reaction to 
> Dumbledore's death moving? We don't get to see what he thinks of 
> Snape's apparent treachery, do you think this omission is 
> conspicuous? Hagrid insists that he's staying whether the school 
> opens or not, because Hogwarts is his home, even though his hut 
has 
> just been burned down. Do you think he only wants to stay because 
of 
> Grawp, or do you think he might have another reason that we don't 
> know about? 

ibchawz responds:
Hogwarts is the only home Hagrid has had since his father died.  I 
can understand his reluctance to leave.  Also knowing Dumbledore's 
view of death as the next great adventure, Hagrid probably believes 
that the school should remain open as that is what he feels 
Dumbledore would want.  I do think that Hagrid knows more about 
Dumbledore trusting Snape than he has let on and this will come to 
light in DH.


> 13. McGonagall will refer the decision to close the school to the 
> governors; do you think that we have any canon to go on in 
guessing 
> whether Hogwarts will reopen or not? Do you think that JKR ought 
to 
> tell us one way or another before book 7?

ibchawz responds:
I think the school will open.  See #8 above.  While it is fun to 
speculate and propose theories on this board, I do not what to know 
what is in the book until I read it for the first time.


> 14. Do you find any of the characters' reactions to Dumbledore's 
> death suspicious? Do you think that we may find out something in 
> book 7 which will make us view this hospital-wing scene in a 
> different light (even if you can't imagine what it is yet)?

ibchawz responds:
Since JKR has indicated that HBP and DH are essentially the first 
and second parts of a larger book, I expect twists along the way.  
In looking back at the first five books, Harry's (and others')
suspicions half way through the books are proven wrong in the end.  
This response actually applies to many of the questions asked.


 
> 15. Did it surprise you that there was no mention of the 
> Headmasters' and Headmistresses' portraits' reactions to 
McGonagall 
> asking where Harry went with Dumbledore? They've often been vocal 
in 
> the past when Harry and Dumbledore were alone together; is their 
> silence in this scene conspicuous? How do you think Phineas 
> Nigellus, for example, reacted to news of Dumbledore's death, and 
> when did he hear? 

ibchawz responds:
I was not surprised.  The portraits frequently pretend to be asleep 
even though they are very attentive to what is happening.  In 
addition, the portraits may be "feeling out" McGonagall to see how 
she will react to thier inputs.


 
> 16. "And he knew, without knowing how he knew it, that the phoenix 
> had gone, had left Hogwarts for good, just as Dumbledore had left 
> the school, had left the world 
 had left Harry." Did you find 
this 
> ending to the chapter poignant? Does it wear off after the sixth 
re-
> read? If we see Fawkes again in book 7, do you think we will get 
to 
> know him as a character in his own right, or will he always be 
> associated with and symbolise Dumbledore?

ibchawz responds:
If we see Fawkes in DH, I think it will be a situation similar to 
COS.  Harry will show loyalty to Dumbledore and Fawkes will come to 
aid him.

ibchawz