CHAPDISC: HBP 29, The Phoenix Lament

Tue Jan 23 17:08:32 UTC 2007

No: HPFGUIDX 164075

> dungrollin's Discussion questions:
> 
> 1. This chapter is a nice opportunity for JKR to show us a variety 
> of characters' reactions to the same emotional upheaval - 
> Dumbledore's death. Did any of their reactions particularly inspire 
> sympathy in you? Which character reacted most similarly to you? Is 
> that character one you normally sympathise or identify with? 

zgirnius:
Hagrid and McGonagall's reactions inspired the most sympathy. 
Especially Hagrid's... My reaction was not similar to that of any of 
the characters, because I, as a reader, was shown more than any other 
character except Harry. Enough to be scratching my head at this point.

> 2. (Take off your DDM!Snape hats for this one, please.) 

zgirnius:
Hee hee. It must have been jinxed by some pesky student...it won't 
come off!

> Do you think, given Lupin, McGonagall and 
> Tonks's astonishment at Harry's story, that *even if Snape really 
> has* betrayed the Order and rejoined Voldemort, there still must 
> have been more than a `tale of remorse' to how he hoodwinked 
> Dumbledore? How do you think ESE!Snape (or similar variants) could 
> have convinced him? What themes that the books have already visited 
> would Snape's tale (and the fact that it was fake) resonate with, 
> and how could his ability to fool Dumbledore reflect upon Harry's 
> story?

zgirnius:
I can answer the first part, anyway. Snape could have, either on his 
own initiative, if he's OFH!, or on LV's orders if he's ESE!, leaked 
information which was actually useful to the Order, which would have 
created the impression he was truly spying *for* Dumbledore.

> 3. Assuming Hermione's account of events in Snape's office is 
> accurate, what do you make of her and Luna's gullibility? Are you 
> annoyed that they didn't realise immediately that Snape had 
> stupefied Flitwick and try to stop him? 

zgirnius:
No, I am not annoyed by them. Hermione had made no secret of the fact 
that she believed Snape trustworthy. She acted based on her own 
instincts/opinions in obeying a teacher she trusted in a crisis.

> Since Ron, Neville and Ginny 
> weren't much more use when confronted by the Peruvian Darkness 
> Powder, and only made it through the fight because of the Felix 
> Felicis, have your views on how useful the DA really was changed?

zgirnius:
I don't think the usefulness of the DA was ever to make schoolkids 
into better fighters than adult, exprienced Death Eaters. So no, it 
did not change my opinion.

> 4. What do you make of McGonagall saying (of Snape) "He must have 
> known a spell we didn't [
] After all, he was the Defence against 
> the Dark Arts teacher?" We all know Snape had been teaching potions 
> for fifteen years before that, so what do you make of this sudden 
> respect for his knowledge of DADA? 

zgirnius:
I think McGonagall is simply observing the fact that Snape is very 
good at DADA. She might have known this from his schooldays (that 
very long OWL exam with the tiny handwriting...), or surmised it 
based in his involvement with the DEs, or from his occasional 
(recular?) attempts to secure the DADA position. Even if she had not, 
she saw evidence of it in HBP - he dealt with the curse that affected 
Katie Bell.

> 5. Molly doesn't give one single sign that she cares at all that 
> Dumbledore's dead, she doesn't react when McGonagall assures Arthur 
> that it's true, nor does she ask Harry or the others if they're all 
> right; she only has eyes for Bill. Do you find that surprising? How 
> do you interpret her different reactions to the dramas at the ends 
> of CoS, GoF and HBP, and how do they reflect upon her assertion in 
> OotP that Harry is as good as her son? 

zgirnius:
I did not find Molly's reaction odd. Bill's situation was muddym adn 
she naturally cares about him.

> 6. In ch5 p92 (UK ed.) Molly says (of Bill and Fleur) "It was the 
> same last time he was powerful, people eloping right left and 
> centre –" yet Lupin seems here to be an exception, holding out 
> against this all-too-human reaction in times of war. Do you find 
> this consistent with his character? Given the close friends he has 
> lost, do you understand him wanting to keep Tonks at arm's length, 
> or do you agree with Molly that he's being ridiculous? How does his 
> behaviour regarding Tonks compare with Harry's later break-up with 
> Ginny?

zgirnius:
Assuming that Lupin is indeed attracted to/in love with Tonks (which 
I sort of feel I need to take on faith) I agree with Molly. It should 
be Tonks' choice whether the complications of a life with Lupin are 
worth it to her, once he has clearly communicated his concerns.

> 10. Do you think Harry was right not to tell McGonagall where he 
> went with Dumbledore? Would you have had the courage (or 
> stubbornness) to do the same at his age? Do you think that he did 
> what Dumbledore would have wanted? McGonagall will almost certainly 
> ask Dumbledore's portrait where he took Harry when it wakes up; 
what 
> do you think it will tell her? Since all the portraits are sworn to 
> help the current head, do you think they will tell her about the 
> horcruxes? If they refused, do you think she has the potential to 
> turn into an Umbridge, or worse?

zgirnius:
I think Harry was right. It might be wise for him to eventually take 
some adult member or members of the Order into his confidence to some 
extent if he finds he needs resources to complete his quest (even McG 
herself), but secrecy about this subject is a wise policy. He should 
do so on a 'need to know' basis. At that point, as far as Harry can 
tell, she does not need to know. At Harry's age (just about to turn 
17) I was working full time and getting ready to move away from home 
to attend college. So yes, I find it quite credible that he could 
make this decision on his own, and stick to it.

I don't think McGonagall has much in common with Umbridge. It is my 
opinion that she asked with the intent to help Harry, and further the 
work of the Order in Dumbledore's absence. The extenmt to which the 
portraits must obey the current head is unclear to me. I'll be 
curious to see what other people think.

> 11. Do you find it surprising that McGonagall didn't ask how Harry 
& 
> co. knew that Malfoy was in the room of requirement? Harry didn't 
> tell her what he knows about the Unbreakable Vow either (despite 
the 
> fact that it didn't have anything to do with the Horcruxes). Do you 
> think she will find out, and if she did how do you think she would 
> react? What story about Malfoy and Snape should Harry be able to 
> piece together from the information he has?

zgirnius:
I imagine Harry will see matters Draco's way - that Draco was given 
the assignment, and Snape wanted a piece of the action, which he 
eventually got when Draco made his decision on the Tower not to kill 
Dumbledore. It fits the facts, and Harry's opinions of what motivates 
Snape. To see events differently, I think he would need to get, 
somehow, some doubts about his evaluation of Snape as a person.

> 12. Hagrid is inconsolable; did you find his reaction to 
> Dumbledore's death moving? We don't get to see what he thinks of 
> Snape's apparent treachery, do you think this omission is 
> conspicuous? Hagrid insists that he's staying whether the school 
> opens or not, because Hogwarts is his home, even though his hut has 
> just been burned down. Do you think he only wants to stay because 
of 
> Grawp, or do you think he might have another reason that we don't 
> know about? 

zgirnius:
I have harbored a suspicion that Hagrid knows something more about 
Dumbledore and Snape's realtionship. We'll see, However, aside from 
Grawpie, Hogwarts IS Hagrid's home. He has lived there since he was 
11, he has no relatives outside there, where else would he go?

> 13. McGonagall will refer the decision to close the school to the 
> governors; do you think that we have any canon to go on in guessing 
> whether Hogwarts will reopen or not? Do you think that JKR ought to 
> tell us one way or another before book 7?

zgirnius:
I expect school to be open. However, Rowling could have her reasons 
for not saying, one way or the other. It  depends what she plans to 
*do* in DH.

> 14. Do you find any of the characters' reactions to Dumbledore's 
> death suspicious? Do you think that we may find out something in 
> book 7 which will make us view this hospital-wing scene in a 
> different light (even if you can't imagine what it is yet)?

zgirnius:
Yes. If there is an ESE character who appeared in that scene.

> 15. Did it surprise you that there was no mention of the 
> Headmasters' and Headmistresses' portraits' reactions to McGonagall 
> asking where Harry went with Dumbledore? 

zgirnius:
I would guess the portraits will be learning to know the new 
Headmistress (assuming she stays on, the Governors could appoint 
someone else).  

> 16. "And he knew, without knowing how he knew it, that the phoenix 
> had gone, had left Hogwarts for good, just as Dumbledore had left 
> the school, had left the world 
 had left Harry." Did you find this 
> ending to the chapter poignant? Does it wear off after the sixth re-
> read? If we see Fawkes again in book 7, do you think we will get to 
> know him as a character in his own right, or will he always be 
> associated with and symbolise Dumbledore?

zgirnius:
Yes, it was moving. Though, I was pretty emotionally wrung out by the 
time I got to that point. For be, the last 5 chapters had been this 
incredible emotional roller coaster. It still is, as are some of the 
scenes in the final chapter.

I do think we will see more of Fawkes. He's already sort of his own 
character, to me. I don't think he will get more so, though. He can't 
talk. And I trhink he retains his loyalty to Dumbledore and what he 
stood for.