CHAPDISC: HBP 29, The Phoenix Lament

[juli17 at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 164088

 Thanks for the great overview and questions, Dungrollin!

1. This chapter is a nice opportunity for JKR to show us a variety 
of characters' reactions to the same emotional upheaval - 
Dumbledore's death. Did any of their reactions particularly inspire 
sympathy in you? Which character reacted most similarly to you? Is 
that character one you normally sympathise or identify with? 
 
Hagrid inspired sympathy, he was so broken up. And Harry, of course.
I can't say there's one character I normally identify with, since
I identify with several for different reasons. 

 
2. (Take off your DDM!Snape hats for this one, please.) In this 
chapter, McGonagall and Tonks ask the same questions that fans have 
been asking for years, namely: what did Snape tell Dumbledore to 
make him trust him? Do you think, given Lupin, McGonagall and 
Tonks's astonishment at Harry's story, that *even if Snape really 
has* betrayed the Order and rejoined Voldemort, there still must 
have been more than a `tale of remorse' to how he hoodwinked 
Dumbledore? How do you think ESE!Snape (or similar variants) could 
have convinced him? What themes that the books have already visited 
would Snape's tale (and the fact that it was fake) resonate with, 
and how could his ability to fool Dumbledore reflect upon Harry's 
story?
 
I'm trying to keep my DDM!Snape hat off, but it keeps trying to
jump back on my head! It's magical, I suppose ;-) Really, you
bring up the biggest reason I can't buy an ESE!Snape--I can't
see any way Dumbledore could have been tricked or hoodwinked.
Dumbledore is too powerful a wizard and he's known Snape in one
manner or another since Snape was 11 years old. ESE!Snape (and
its variations) means Fool!Dumbledore, and that's the real 
stumbling block for me. I just can't buy into him, no way, 
no how. Sorry (okay, not really!)
 

3. Assuming Hermione's account of events in Snape's office is 
accurate, what do you make of her and Luna's gullibility? Are you 
annoyed that they didn't realise immediately that Snape had 
stupefied Flitwick and try to stop him? Since Ron, Neville and Ginny 
weren't much more use when confronted by the Peruvian Darkness 
Powder, and only made it through the fight because of the Felix 
Felicis, have your views on how useful the DA really was changed?
 
I don't think Hermione and Luna were gullible at all. They may
think Snape a mean teacher, but they still trust him as a teacher
and ally (even if Harry doesn't) so they have no reason here to
suspect he's lying. As for the DA, this scene didn't really 
change my views. I don't expect the DA members to be more powerful
than most adult wizards. Though I do expect they'll grow into 
it, especially if the DA is back for Book 7.

 
4. What do you make of McGonagall saying (of Snape) "He must have 
known a spell we didn't […] After all, he was the Defence against 
the Dark Arts teacher?" We all know Snape had been teaching potions 
for fifteen years before that, so what do you make of this sudden 
respect for his knowledge of DADA? Do you think the teaching posts 
confer something special on their holders? Does this give us any 
clues as to why Voldemort particularly wanted to have the DADA job? 
Or do you think McGonagall could be alluding in some way to the 
curse?
 
McGonagall knew Snape as a student, so I'm assuming she knew 
about his affinity for Dark Arts (as Sirius said, Snape knew
more curses as an 11 year old than most adults). She's also
worked with him for 15 years, and if she didn't know he'd 
pursued the DADA position during much of that time, she would
know he's qualified for it.

As far as teaching posts conferring something special on their
holders, given the number of incompetent teachers we've seen
at Hogwarts, I think NOT! 

 
5. Molly doesn't give one single sign that she cares at all that 
Dumbledore's dead, she doesn't react when McGonagall assures Arthur 
that it's true, nor does she ask Harry or the others if they're all 
right; she only has eyes for Bill. Do you find that surprising? How 
do you interpret her different reactions to the dramas at the ends 
of CoS, GoF and HBP, and how do they reflect upon her assertion in 
OotP that Harry is as good as her son? 
 
I didn't find Molly's reaction strange at all. Harry isn't visibly
hurt, nor anyone else, while Bill is severely injured for life. 
While I'm sure she's sorry Dumbledore is dead, understandably
she's consumed at the moment by her concern for her injured son.
 

6. In ch5 p92 (UK ed.) Molly says (of Bill and Fleur) "It was the 
same last time he was powerful, people eloping right left and 
centre –" yet Lupin seems here to be an exception, holding out 
against this all-too-human reaction in times of war. Do you find 
this consistent with his character? Given the close friends he has 
lost, do you understand him wanting to keep Tonks at arm's length, 
or do you agree with Molly that he's being ridiculous? How does his 
behaviour regarding Tonks compare with Harry's later break-up with 
Ginny?
 
I do understand Lupin wanting to keep Tonks at arm's length, as 
he's been doing that with people all his life, to protect himself
and from his POV to protect others. He's been doing that to Harry
all along too. It's selfish behavior though. If Tonks (or Harry, 
or whoever) knows who and what he is and is willing to assume the
risk of loving him, then the courageous thing for Lupin to do is
to honor that risk by taking the same risk back. I'm still waiting 
for Lupin to show his true Gryffindor colors and do this :-(

 
7. Do you think that the fact that Dumbledore's portrait is sleeping 
peacefully and looking untroubled is significant? If so, what do you 
think it signifies, and if JKR had wanted to signify the opposite, 
how do you think she would have done it? 
 
I do consider the portrait sleeping peacefully to be significant.
To me it signifies that Dumbledore died equally at peace with 
himself (as his expression when Harry found him also signified).
If it had truly gone pear-shaped in the end--Snape killed him 
without Dumbledore's tacit agreement to that act--then I think
we wouldn't have been shown this peacefully sleeping Portrait!
Dumbledore.

As for what JKR would have done to signify the opposite, maybe 
not show the portrait at all? But since she clearly intended 
Snape to be on the side of good and Dumbledore to die having
accomplished what he wanted to accomplish all along, it's 
really a moot point ;-)
 

8. What do you make of McGonagall's statement about closing the 
school: "… I must say that Professor Dumbledore's murder is more 
disturbing to me than the idea of Slytherin's monster living 
undetected in the bowels of the castle…" Do you find this statement 
surprising? Do you agree with it? Do you think it might reflect the 
fact that she was a student at Hogwarts the first time the Chamber 
opened? Do you think it reflects JKR's opinion?
 
I do agree with the statement, more because of the circumstances
of the moment than anything else. Voldemort wasn't back during the
CoS incident, so the threat to Hogwarts and its students is much
greater with Dumbledore gone than it was even with a monster in
the bowels of the castle. 

 
9. What do you make of Slughorn's reaction to Dumbledore's death, 
his shock at Snape's culpability, his ambivalence about the school 
reopening, and his seeming reluctance that the students should stay 
for the funeral? How does this compare with his manner with 
Dumbledore in chapter four? If the school reopens, do you think he 
will stay on as potions master and head of Slytherin, and do you 
think Dumbledore's death will affect his decision?
 
I suspect Slughorn will make the decision to stay on, at least
partly in response to Dumbledore's death, which has made the
school much more vulnerable now. Of course he may take some 
persuading, as sticking his neck out isn't really his natural
instinct. And Hogwarts will reopen.

 
10. Do you think Harry was right not to tell McGonagall where he 
went with Dumbledore? Would you have had the courage (or 
stubbornness) to do the same at his age? Do you think that he did 
what Dumbledore would have wanted? McGonagall will almost certainly 
ask Dumbledore's portrait where he took Harry when it wakes up; what 
do you think it will tell her? Since all the portraits are sworn to 
help the current head, do you think they will tell her about the 
horcruxes? If they refused, do you think she has the potential to 
turn into an Umbridge, or worse?
 
I think Harry was right, as he was following Dumbledore's orders.
As for what information Portrait!Dumbledore and the other 
portraits might tell McGonagall, that depends. I don't really
see McGonagall as another Umbridge, but I'm starting to get a
more than sneaking suspicion that she may well turn out to be
another Peter Pettigrew. If so, all bets are off...

 
11. Do you find it surprising that McGonagall didn't ask how Harry & 
co. knew that Malfoy was in the room of requirement? Harry didn't 
tell her what he knows about the Unbreakable Vow either (despite the 
fact that it didn't have anything to do with the Horcruxes). Do you 
think she will find out, and if she did how do you think she would 
react? What story about Malfoy and Snape should Harry be able to 
piece together from the information he has?
 
McGonagall...well, I have more to say about her in another,
upcoming post. In the meantime, see my answer to #10. 

 
12. Hagrid is inconsolable; did you find his reaction to 
Dumbledore's death moving? We don't get to see what he thinks of 
Snape's apparent treachery, do you think this omission is 
conspicuous? Hagrid insists that he's staying whether the school 
opens or not, because Hogwarts is his home, even though his hut has 
just been burned down. Do you think he only wants to stay because of 
Grawp, or do you think he might have another reason that we don't 
know about? 

I was moved by Hagrid's reaction. I also suspect we didn't get
what Hagrid thinks of Snape's treachery because JKR is still 
hiding something about Hagrid and Snape's relationship. After
all, Hagrid is the LAST person to hide his feelings. If he
thought Snape was the evil, murdering bastard everyone else 
has come to accept, he'd hardly hesitate to say so. Very 
suspicious this omission, I think. 
 
As for why Hagrid wants to stay at Hogwarts, it is his home in
every sense. That's the main reason to me, and it encompasses 
everything else, his caring for Grawp, whatever secrets he may
carry about Snape or Harry, etc. 

13. McGonagall will refer the decision to close the school to the 
governors; do you think that we have any canon to go on in guessing 
whether Hogwarts will reopen or not? Do you think that JKR ought to 
tell us one way or another before book 7?
 
Hogwarts will reopen. No canon to provide, but JKR has said the
books are about Harry's seven years at Hogwarts, so how could the
school *not* play a role in Book 7? As for whether JKR should 
tell us or not, I don't think there's any reason why she should.

 
14. Do you find any of the characters' reactions to Dumbledore's 
death suspicious? Do you think that we may find out something in 
book 7 which will make us view this hospital-wing scene in a 
different light (even if you can't imagine what it is yet)?

15. Did it surprise you that there was no mention of the 
Headmasters' and Headmistresses' portraits' reactions to McGonagall 
asking where Harry went with Dumbledore? They've often been vocal in 
the past when Harry and Dumbledore were alone together; is their 
silence in this scene conspicuous? How do you think Phineas 
Nigellus, for example, reacted to news of Dumbledore's death, and 
when did he hear?
 
The silence, suspicious...uh huh. I do wish we had gotten a
reaction from Phineas over Dumbledore's death though. I very 
much hope Phineas has some words to say about that in Book 7.
And I'm looking forward to the prospect of Portrait!Dumbledore
and Phineas having a conversation or two. Hope it happens!

 
16. "And he knew, without knowing how he knew it, that the phoenix 
had gone, had left Hogwarts for good, just as Dumbledore had left 
the school, had left the world … had left Harry." Did you find this 
ending to the chapter poignant? Does it wear off after the sixth re-
read? If we see Fawkes again in book 7, do you think we will get to 
know him as a character in his own right, or will he always be 
associated with and symbolise Dumbledore?
 
It was a poignant ending. I'm sure we'll see Fawkes again in Book
7, and while he'll certainly always be associated with Dumbledore,
it would be nice to see him as a character in his own right too.
I hope we will. And zeroing in on the words "had left Harry," 
I'm suddenly wondering again if Fawkes may end up with...Snape.
Hmm.
 
Thanks again for the questions, Dungrollin!

 
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