Would Harry forgiving Snape be character growth for him? Re: CHAPDISC: HBP 29,

[dungrollin]

No: HPFGUIDX 164113

Alla:
<snip>
Right now Harry **hates** Snape, then he will learn to **not hate**
Snape anymore. Not because Snape did not do anything wrong, but
because Snape either commits redemptive act OR because Harry would
realise that it is really bad for his mental health to become like
Snape or because Harry would realise that Lily would have wanted him
to forgive Snape or something.

Betsy Hp:
> I guess the problem is that I don't see forgiveness figuring into
the story if Snape is ESE. What has he done to invite forgiveness at
> this point? How is Harry being pushed towards forgiving him? 

Alla:
<Snip>
> I absolutely can see Harry forgiving Snape **not** because Snape 
did anything to invite forgiveness, but simply because his mother 
would have wanted him to forgive. ( because forgiveness is supposed 
to be a gift, no? I mean I am all for forgiveness being earned, 
believe me, but isn't in christianity one supposed to forgive just 
because Jesus did? And no, I am not saying it would be direct 
allegory, just thematic possibility IMO).
> 

Dung:
I'd like to leave aside Alla's main question about whether Harry 
forgiving Snape would equal character growth, and actually ask 
whether it's in principle possible to forgive an ESE!Snape at all. 

Firstly, what exactly are we talking about when we talk about 
forgiveness? Personally I don't see forgiveness as simply ignoring 
crimes, or forgetting about crimes, or deciding that crimes don't 
matter and sweeping them under the carpet. 

To me, (and I'm really speaking from personal experience here, I've 
no idea if anyone else finds the same thing), forgiveness involves 
an element of empathy, it involves being able to put myself in 
someone else's shoes, and admitting to myself that there is 
potentially be a series of events which could cause me to act in a 
similar way. Once I have admitted that I am hypothetically capable 
of committing the same crime given a certain set of circumstances, 
that I understand the motivation of the person who's wronged me, 
then the door is open to forgiveness. 

(The most common thing I find myself forgiving people for is 
ignorance of the consequences of an action, which is pretty easy to 
empathise with since we're only human.)

Otherwise, I would just be letting someone off the hook for no 
reason. I cannot forgive someone I don't understand, except in a 
very abstract way, which feels rather like paying lip-service to the 
ethic of trying not to be too judgemental because I might not have 
all the facts. It's not what I'd call genuine forgiveness. It's like 
forgiving Voldemort in a kind of `on-paper' way because it's not his 
fault he's a psychopath. 

So here's a question: can you *force* yourself to forgive somebody 
who has not only done you horrific wrong, but that you despise from 
the very core of your being? Can you *force* yourself to let go of 
all that emotional baggage, not because you have some sympathy for 
the situation that they were in, or the difficult choice they had to 
make, but simply because you need to have forgiven them in order to 
be able to defeat the Dark Lord? Or because you reckon your dead 
mother would have wanted you to? 

Alla, Sherry and others, can *you* forgive an ESE!Snape? If you 
can't, how is Harry supposed to *without finding out some 
information which changes his view of Snape and/or Snape's crimes*?

I don't think I'd be able to forgive an ESE!Snape as he stands now. 
I don't have a clue as to his motivations, so I am utterly unable to 
put myself in his shoes and ask myself whether I can imagine being 
prey to the same weaknesses.  I suppose I could do it in an `on-
paper' abstract kind of way, with the assumption that something 
really bad must have happened to him at some point, or a string of 
really bad things, which turned him into the magnificent bastard we 
see in canon. But I don't think I could do the genuine empathetic 
stuff. On the other hand, I am certain that I could forgive Snape if 
it came to light that he was DDM.

So (assuming that you've agreed with what I wrote above – if you 
don't, I hope you can at least understand where I'm coming from) if 
we're considering Harry actually *genuinely* forgiving Snape, there 
*has*, IMO, to be an element of empathy, Harry has to come into 
possession of some more information about Snape which opens the door 
to forgiveness. 

What information could that be, if it isn't a revelation that Snape 
is DDM? An abused and neglected childhood? Further horrifying and 
remorseless bullying at school? Maybe unforgivable persecution and 
torture from Voldemort drove him insane? 

Or perhaps Harry would have to go through a dark night of the soul, 
where he would be tempted to use dark magic, to murder, to commit 
similar crimes to Snape ... in order to be capable of understanding 
Snape's moral weakness, in order to be able to empathise with his 
choices, and thus be able to forgive them? 

I suppose what I'm getting at is that at the moment (end of HBP) 
Harry has clearly not forgiven Snape, but if you think that he will 
at some point in the future, something must change. The question is 
therefore, what? If it's Snape, how is Snape going to change, and 
what will precipitate this change? If it is Harry, how is Harry 
going to change, and what will precipitate this change? If it is 
Harry's *view* of Snape, and yet Snape is not DDM, what will Harry 
learn that opens the door to forgiveness?

Dung, just interested in others' thoughts.