Would Harry forgiving Snape be character growth for him? Re: CHAPDISC: HBP 29,

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 164109

> > >>Alla:
> > <snip>
> > The question is why do you not see that Harry forgiving Snape, 
evil 
> > Snape or any less than completely DD!M Snape would be a 
character 
> > growth for Harry.
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> I guess the problem is that I don't see forgiveness figuring into 
the 
> story if Snape is ESE.  What has he done to invite forgiveness at 
> this point?  How is Harry being pushed towards forgiving him?  Do 
you 
> feel that Harry's main goal for DH should be to chase down Snape, 
> forgive him, and I guess through the power of his patented Harry-
love 
> turn Snape towards redemption? Because I don't see any hint of 
this 
> being a theme in the books.

Alla:

Wait, wait now I am even more confused. So you do not see 
forgiveness as one of the theme of the books at all?

As to what Snape would have done to invite forgiveness? Well, there 
is always book 7. I guess Snape/Lily ( supposed one) can heavily 
influence that. I absolutely can see Harry forgiving Snape **not** 
because Snape did anything to invite forgiveness, but simply because 
his mother would have wanted him to forgive. ( because forgiveness 
is supposed to be a gift, no? I mean I am all for forgiveness being 
earned, believe me, but isn't in christianity one supposed to 
forgive just because Jesus did? And no, I am not saying it would be 
direct allegory, just thematic possibility IMO).

And the fact that Harry did forgive him may cause Snape to do 
something redemptive at the end, etc.


Betsy: 
> If Snape is actually evil and so cunning he managed to fool 
> Dumbledore I think the story would have to be about how Harry has 
> been right all along and no one listened to him because...  Well, 
if 
> we're going with the "naked Emperor" story-line, then it'd be 
Harry's 
> untainted principle and honesty (which I also have a hard time 
seeing 
> in the actual books <g>).

Alla:

Oh, I think I got the problem, maybe. I do not understand how one 
excludes another. I mean, if Snape is evil or less than good, yes, 
the story is about Harry being right about Snape's nature, but who 
says that story is **only** about Harry being right about Snape 
nature?

Why the story cannot be also about Harry being wrong that Snape 
cannot change **within** the story and change his ways?

And I guess again the same question if Harry realises that how is it 
not a character growth for him?

Sorry to keep hammering on this, but I really want to understand the 
POV on this one.



> Betsy Hp:
> ESE!Snape overshadows Voldemort.  In fact, if Snape really is 
evil, 
> the opening of DH should be Snape killing Voldemort and taking his 
> place.  Because Snape has shown himself *far* more capable as a 
> villain then Voldemort.  Snape fooled the great Dumbledore; 
Voldemort 
> tried and failed.  Snape killed the great Dumbledore; Voldemort 
tried 
> and failed. 

Alla:

I again am not talking about whether Snape can or cannot be Evil. I 
understand that it is very hard to make the assumption that he is, 
but I am only interested in how Harry forgiving him would not mark 
Harry's change of heart, etc.

I mean Snape does not even have to be completely evil here, he can 
be anything but complete DD!M, he can be Grey, LID, OFH, anything, 
but perfect Snape.

Because you see, I do see the story you are talking about - Harry 
being wrong about who Snape is, and realising how wrong he is, 
growing that way. And I may even be able to swallow that story, if 
written well, as long as Harry realising that Snape is DD!M is not 
done through Snape abusing Harry again.

( Never mind me - I just read story where Snape letting Harry know 
how wonderful he is after kidnapping Harry and educating him on the 
issue. Boy, would ending like this - another Harry humiliation on 
the hands of Snape make me angry)

But I am just racking  my brain trying to understand how moving from 
hate to forgiveness, if Snape is not good does not mean anything for 
Harry character or the growth that I see for him.


> Betsy Hp:
> Again, if that's a theme in the books (and I seriously haven't 
seen 
> it) then it'd be taken care of with Voldemort.  If Harry is 
supposed 
> to forgive someone evil, Voldemort is standing right there, blood 
of 
> Harry's parent's dripping from his hands.  ESE!Snape would once 
again 
> be a repeat.

Alla:

How do you know that though? JKR said that she is writing about 
degrees of evil. Maybe Harry supposed to start stretching his love 
muscles on the smaller evil, LOL and then move to Voldemort?

My guess is that whatever Harry does to forgive Smape or Peter or 
whoever would activate that power ( metaphor of the sorts) that 
would help him deal with Voldemort. IMO of course.


Betsy Hp: 
> But honestly, I don't see forgiveness as a theme.

Alla:

But but isn't it what Dumbledore does all the time? Isn't that what 
he did to Snape, to Draco etc?