Would Harry forgiving Snape be character growth for him? Re: CHAPDISC: HBP 29,

[va32h]

No: HPFGUIDX 164118

Magpie:
I think what Betsy might mean--and what others are also saying--is 
that she doesn't see blanket forgiveness *for its own sake* as a 
theme in the books. JKR really doesn't seem to put too much stress 
on forgiving someone on principle. She seems to get more into the 
individuals actually feeling the desire to forgive for a reason.

Va32h here:

I guess I see Dumbledore as the representative of blanket forgivness. 
He is the one who forgives Snape, even though, as far as we know, 
Snape has not personally wronged Dumbledore. Even aiding Voldemort 
and assisting in the murder of the Potters is not a personal wrong 
against Dumbledore. And when Dumbledore tells the assembled crowd at 
the end of GoF that they "will be welcomed back here at any time" it 
just struck me as a metaphor for the idea of forgivness. Of course, 
Dumbledore also says that in order to work together, their aims must 
be identical and their hearts open. ESE Snape would not have 
identical goals to Harry (but then I think Snape is DDM anyway). 

But it still won't *hurt* Harry to forgive an ESE Snape, even if that 
forgiveness consists only of no longer actively pursuing revenge 
against him. Forgiveness does not require Harry to like Snape or 
trust him, just to let go of the personal hatred for him. If Harry is 
presented with a choice of destroying a horcrux or pursuing Snape, 
won't we all want him to put aside his grievance with Snape and look 
at the larger goal? 

I would also suggest that Harry has already practiced a level of 
blanket forgiveness with the Dursleys. Harry doesn't love the 
Dursleys, but he isn't consumed with punishing them or getting even 
with them either. In fact, when Dudley, of all people, is in danger, 
Harry's first instinct is to help. Harry may never say the words "I 
forgive you" to the Dursleys, he may never even think of his 
relationship with them in terms of forgiveness, but it is clear to me 
that he has thrived by being able to focus on himself and improving 
his life, rather than punishing them. 


Magpie:
Given the way Snape is set up, I can't imagine Harry offering ESE!
Snape forgiveness just to forgive him without it being another jab 
at Snape, showing satisfying contempt. Because what in Harry's 
character or the books so far has set up that sort of thing, where 
someone says, "You're the worst person in my world, but I forgive 
you?" On the contrary, the books are far more interested in the 
reasons why people *can't* forgive, and in forgiving through truly 
understanding the other person. Harry has to learn and develop in 
order to forgive any version of Snape, and it's just hard to imagine 
what lessons he'll be learning and what direction he'll be 
developing to arrive at the forgiveness of ESE!Snape.
 
So if Harry is going to forgive ESE!Snape--it could certainly be 
growth. But I suspect Harry would have to be forgiving him because 
he understands why Snape did these things, and can empathize or see 
something good there. (The "drop of pity" Harry feels for Draco at 
the end of HBP is connected not just to Draco's fear and hard 
situation but to Draco's wand going down.) 

Va32h here:
Forgiving *can* be about understand and empathizing with the person 
who wronged you, but it doesn't have to be. 

Think of the countless real-life people who forgive the criminals who 
have murdered their loved ones. Surely this is not a case of putting 
themselves in their shoes or understanding them, or rationalizing 
that they might have done the same thing.

Rather, the forgiveness comes from realizing that nurturing the hate 
is hurting *themselves*, not the person they hate. 

I wonder if anyone will ever understand Snape's motives, including 
the readers. That happens. It's the question asked when anyone does 
something evil: "Why! What made you do that!" We don't always get an 
answer, and even if we do, it may not be our idea of a good answer. 

Which is why I think it's such a virtue to be able to forgive without 
having a specific reason. 


Magpie:

I admit it's hard for me to envision this because it seems so much 
like JKR is gearing up for compassion for Snape, for showing us that 
he really did feel remorse and really did try to undo what he did. 
Since these books don't seem generally forgiving, I have a hard time 
imagining how this would play out. It seems like either Harry has 
got to literally recognize himself in ESE!Snape and so be able to a 
connection even though Snape's as evil as he is, or Harry's 
forgiveness would be more along the lines of his feelings about 
Peter--he's evil, but he's beneath me. I'll let the Dementors/death 
take care of him. It's hard for me to see the build-up to Harry's 
forgiving ESE!Snape out of what I guess you'd call a more exalted 
place.
 
I guess the most obvious comparison for me would not be Harry 
forgiving Voldemort, but Harry forgiving Peter, who also continues 
to make choices to destroy Harry's happiness. Harry could certainly 
forgive him, but I can't imagine him forgiving him in a way that 
doesn't highlight the contempt Peter should be held in.   

Va32h:

I agree that it is hard to imagine a scenario in which Harry simply 
decided to forgive ESE Snape. But as I mentioned before, Harry has 
already "forgiven" in this sense by coming to terms with the 
Dursleys. And I think he has alreay forgiven Peter as well. I didn't 
see Harry's treatment of Peter as considering Peter "beneath him" - 
although I do see that angle, in Harry's comment that the Dementors 
were too good for Peter. 

But Harry's reasoning in forgiving Peter was really out of 
pragmatism. Killing Peter might make everyone feel righteous for a 
few minutes, but it wouldn't exonerate Sirius. And wanting someone 
dead and actually causing their death are two very different things, 
and even at 13, I think Harry is a compassionate enough person to 
know there is a difference. Harry's relationship with the Dursleys is 
also pragmatic. He could torment them, which might make him feel 
better for a little bit, but in the end, would not make his life any 
better. 

What I am long windedly trying to say is - forgiveness doesn't have 
to mean "I understand what you did and no longer hate you for it", 
but can also be "I still hate what you did, but am not going to waste 
my life and energy in getting even with you."

That's the kind of forgiveness that I think Harry has already 
practiced, and can bring to his relationship with Snape, whether 
Snape is ESE or DDM.

va32h/Barbara