Would Harry forgiving Snape be character growth for him? Re: CHAPDISC: HBP 29,

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 164129

> >>Magpie:
> I think what Betsy might mean--and what others are also saying--is 
> that she doesn't see blanket forgiveness *for its own sake* as a 
> theme in the books.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Yes, exactly.  Never has any character in Potterverse forgiven 
someone (in the true sense of the word) without that person having 
done *something* to show that they'd earned that forgivness.  Not 
even Dumbledore takes that sort of action.  At least, not that I've 
seen.

Dumbledore doesn't forgive Tom Riddle; he holds Tom responsible for 
all of his actions.  And Dumbledore doesn't truly forgive Draco.  He 
leaves a door open for Draco to walk through, yes.  He encourages 
Draco to choose a different path.  But Dumbledore doesn't suggest 
that Draco may now forget about any past wrongs he's done; that 
Dumbledore has washed that sin all away.  *Action* is required of 
Draco.

(Something Dumbledore does do is detach a person's evil actions from 
himself.  IOWs, Dumbledore doesn't allow Tom's evilness to threaten 
or alarm him.  Is that a sort of forgiveness?  I'm not sure, 
honestly.)

Gosh, not even Snape (seen as loyal by Dumbledore) gets a scene in 
which Dumbledore suggests that all is forgiven.

And one thing the books certainly don't do is encourage anyone to 
forgive evil, if Voldemort equals evil. (And the way JKR strips him 
of any sort of humanity suggests that he comes pretty darn close, 
IMO).  So I'm confused as to how an evil Snape should somehow be up 
for forgivness.  I'm not sure what might have forshadowed such a 
thing.

> >>Alla:
> <snip>
> Keep in mind again that I am not talking about strictly evil Snape, 
> but just any Snape, who is less than fully DD!M.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Then you're changing the rules.  I was told to imagine ESE!Snape.  
And I did.  However, playing along... <g> I suppose this version of 
Snape is only slightly evil?  His mother beat him and that's why he 
became a murderer? Again, what in the books suggests that Harry 
forgiving such a man is a theme JKR is working on showing?  I 
honestly don't see anything.

This flavor Snape is as much a copy of Peter Pettigrew as ESE!Snape 
is a copy of Voldemort.  Harry does not, and is not encouraged to, 
forgive Peter.  So why would he forgive Snape?

> >>Alla:
> <snip>
> I mean I am all for forgiveness being earned, believe me, but isn't 
> in christianity one supposed to forgive just because Jesus did?
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Well... no.  Not really.  Not the way I understand it.  Evil isn't 
forgiven, it's destroyed.  And I guess through its destruction comes 
forgivness. "Go and sin no more", etc. etc. (Though honestly, it's 
hard to make blanket statements about Christian beliefs.  About the 
only thing holding Christianity together is that all Christians 
follow the teachings of Christ.  Thing is, what exactly Christ taught 
has been up for argument since... well, Jesus. <g>)

But beyond the definition of Christian Forgiveness, again, this is 
not the sort of thing I see at all expressed in the books.  I'm not 
saying that some part of Christianity won't be expressed in the 
Potter books, but forgiveness isn't it, that I've seen.  (I'm leaning 
towards redemption, myself.)

> >>Magpie:
> <snip>
> So is it more Christian to forgive someone who has no remorse than
> one that does? I don't think so.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I certainly don't remember that particular lesson being taught in 
Sunday School. <g>  Of course, I also see Snape's story being tied 
more to the story of Saul/Paul.  And Saul had to feel quite a bit of 
remorse in order to earn the redemption that gave him the name Paul.  
(Would that make Harry, Ananias? Heh, I don't think it's a literal 
retelling.)

Hmm... I suppose Alla is thinking that the remorse, redemption, 
rebirth phase of (anything but DDM!)Snape's story will all get 
crammed into DH?  For one, I don't think it'll fit.  For another, if 
Snape has been meant to be exactly what Harry saw him as throughout 
the previous books, it seems to be piling too many themes on Snape's 
poor shoulders.  And finally, it puts too much growth onto Snape.  
Snape will be where the action is, while Harry doesn't grow too much 
at all.

However, if most of Snape's redemption has taken place off-screen and 
Harry learns about it on-screen, the action will all be on Harry's 
side.  Which is why I don't see any flavor but DDM!Snape (not to be 
confused with perfect!Snape) as fitting into Harry's story.

Of course, my view completely changes when we look towards a DDM!
Snape.  Because *that's* a Snape that I can see Harry needing to 
forgive.  Snape has treated Harry badly, and Harry does need to let 
his anger at such treatment go.  

If Snape is DDM!, then I can see Harry *finally* recognizing that 
Snape has felt remorse for his majorly wrong actions (i.e. telling 
Voldemort the prophecy).  I can see Harry finally seeing that Snape 
has been trying to redeem himself.  And so I can see Harry forgiving 
Snape for the wrongs Snape has done and has actively tried to put 
behind him.  (Hey, maybe Harry *is* Ananias! <g>)

And beyond that, Harry may be able to forgive Snape those actions 
that perhaps Snape himself doesn't recognize as wrong (classroom 
behavior, snipes at James, etc.).  Which would put Harry in a 
stronger position, character-wise, than Snape.  Since Snape was not 
able to let go of (or forgive) the wrong actions of the not always 
well behaved but still basically good James, Sirius and Lupin.

*That's* the sort of forgiveness I can see occuring in the "Harry 
grows up" story line.  But not forgiveness of evil.  Whether that 
evil is straight-up (Snape as Voldemort) or whiny (Snape as Peter).

[An aside: This was a fairly hard post to write for some reason. 
Partly, I think, because I tried to seperate out my personal beliefs 
from the themes I see in the actual books.  I'm not sure how 
successful I was on that, but for that reason I didn't respond to the 
posts that talked about Forgivness in and of itself -- though I did 
read them.  Just so you all know. <g>]

Betsy Hp (not sure this is even postable, but oh what the heck! <g>)