Would Harry forgiving Snape be character growth for him? Re: CHAPDISC: HBP 29,

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 164120

> Magpie:
> I admit it's hard for me to envision this because it seems so much
> like JKR is gearing up for compassion for Snape, for showing us
that
> he really did feel remorse and really did try to undo what he did.
> Since these books don't seem generally forgiving, I have a hard
time
> imagining how this would play out.
>
> Alla:
>
> I guess to me it seems the contrary that all goes to the end being
as
> forgiveness the key for everything.
> It is not like everybody on every page forgives each other, but
since
> Dumbledore does and since he is so delighted that Harry felt
> something for Tom Riddle, it seems that all roads lead there to me
of
> course.
> I mean DD forgives his assassin, loudly at that, no?

Magpie:
Yes, he does forgive there--and that was what I felt like I was
talking around in my post too.:-) Dumbledore does forgive, and even
with someone like Tom Riddle whom he needs to defeat, he doesn't
seem angry at him. So I do think that Harry needs to go in that
direction. I just don't think that he's going to reach Dumbledore's
level by the end of the 7th book (a lot of Dumbledore's pov seems to
go along with his great age, after all). JKR is so good with
characters, I feel like what interests here more about this (and
this is fine with me because it interests me too and I believe in
this reason for forgiveness) is understanding the person.

That's a reason I find it hard to believe that Dumbledore was
tricked by Snape. As Betsy reminded us, the whole "he needs to see
the good in people and is a sucker" is the DE view, while really
Dumbledore seems particularly good at understanding people. His
problem is usually that somehow underestimates or overestimates
them. After the fact he usually understands where they were coming
from. So I think even with Dumbledore the forgiveness is connected
to understanding people, not just a compulsion to forgive. He seems
very much a "too understand is to forgive" person, and it seems like
that's the path Harry will take as well to me.

>
> Magpie:
> It seems like either Harry has
> got to literally recognize himself in ESE!Snape and so be able to a
> connection even though Snape's as evil as he is, or Harry's
> forgiveness would be more along the lines of his feelings about
> Peter--he's evil, but he's beneath me. I'll let the Dementors/death
> take care of him. It's hard for me to see the build-up to Harry's
> forgiving ESE!Snape out of what I guess you'd call a more exalted
> place.
>
> Alla:
>
> Would it be easier if Snape would not be strictly evil?

Magpie:
I think so...I think because Harry's character as I see him is
pretty demanding of people. He doesn't waste time on people who
don't really deserve it. When I try to picture him dealing with ESE!
Snape I feel like he's either furious at him because he's so evil,
or thinks he's pathetic because he's so evil, if that makes sense.
Unless, of course, Harry gets to a point where he can connect to ESE!
Snape--which might be harder, but I'm not going to rule that out.
(Suddenly I'm thinking about that moment where Luke refuses to kill
Vader in Star Wars!)

> Magpie:
>
> I guess the most obvious comparison for me would not be Harry
> forgiving Voldemort, but Harry forgiving Peter, who also continues
> to make choices to destroy Harry's happiness. Harry could certainly
> forgive him, but I can't imagine him forgiving him in a way that
> doesn't highlight the contempt Peter should be held in.
>
> Alla:
>
> The difference would be if Harry sees Snape making some other
choices
> as well. IMO of course.

Magpie:
Definitely. I think Harry "gets" Peter and judges him accordingly.
Peter's "true self" seems to have been revealed in ways that Snape's
hasn't completely been revealed. (Which is not meant to suggest
his "true self" completely negates his other self, just that Harry
doesn't really get what makes him tick yet.)

That's maybe why it sometimes surprises me when people talk about
Peter being the one to be "redeemed" in Book VII. I think he's
obviously been set up to be an asset to Harry in some way--DD stated
that when he explained the Life Debt. But the Debt seems like it
makes it even more difficult for Peter to do the right thing for any
other reason than its benefiting him. Harry could still forgive
Peter, but I think it would be in a more dismissive way than he will
ultimately forgive Snape.

Va32h here:
Forgiving *can* be about understand and empathizing with the person
who wronged you, but it doesn't have to be.

Think of the countless real-life people who forgive the criminals who
have murdered their loved ones. Surely this is not a case of putting
themselves in their shoes or understanding them, or rationalizing
that they might have done the same thing.

Rather, the forgiveness comes from realizing that nurturing the hate
is hurting *themselves*, not the person they hate.

I wonder if anyone will ever understand Snape's motives, including
the readers. That happens. It's the question asked when anyone does
something evil: "Why! What made you do that!" We don't always get an
answer, and even if we do, it may not be our idea of a good answer.

Which is why I think it's such a virtue to be able to forgive without
having a specific reason.

[...]
I agree that it is hard to imagine a scenario in which Harry simply
decided to forgive ESE Snape. But as I mentioned before, Harry has
already "forgiven" in this sense by coming to terms with the
Dursleys. And I think he has alreay forgiven Peter as well. I didn't
see Harry's treatment of Peter as considering Peter "beneath him" -
although I do see that angle, in Harry's comment that the Dementors
were too good for Peter.

But Harry's reasoning in forgiving Peter was really out of
pragmatism. Killing Peter might make everyone feel righteous for a
few minutes, but it wouldn't exonerate Sirius. And wanting someone
dead and actually causing their death are two very different things,
and even at 13, I think Harry is a compassionate enough person to
know there is a difference. Harry's relationship with the Dursleys is
also pragmatic. He could torment them, which might make him feel
better for a little bit, but in the end, would not make his life any
better.

Magpie:
I could not agree more with that view of forgiveness in real life--
it's something I definitely believe. I still disagree that this is 
something the book is striving to teach. The story seems far more 
concerned with personal understanding of people and *not* just not 
self-destructively holding on to that hatred. That can be part of it-
-Harry doesn't keep himself awake nights tossing and turning about 
the Dursleys or Peter. But I don't think his "forgiveness" of them 
compares to the type Dumbledore offered Snape and Draco storywise.

I particularly don't see him heading in this direction with Snape, 
since Harry's conflict with him is the most important relationship 
in the books. This isn't somebody who, imo, he's working towards 
cutting loose. The Slytherin characters get to him more than the 
Dursleys because they are more like his shadows, and as such they 
have to be joined with the whole, not just set loose. 

Even Dumbledore, as I said to Alla, seems to combine forgiving with 
understanding. He understands where everyone is coming from so I 
don't think that can be separated from the offer of forgiveness or 
his lack of rage against them. Maybe the issue is that while the 
kind of forgiveness you're describing is definitely healthy, it's 
not very dramatic. It amounts to walking away. In a book that needs 
to at least be built up to through drama. You could do it, but I 
suspect it would need for Harry to get further and further down a 
dark path for revenge while the book to me seems to be heading more 
towards empathy. 

-m