Would Harry forgiving Snape be character growth for him? Re: CHAPDISC: HBP 29,

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 164117

Magpie:
I think what Betsy might mean--and what others are also saying--is
that she doesn't see blanket forgiveness *for its own sake* as a
theme in the books. JKR really doesn't seem to put too much stress
on forgiving someone on principle. She seems to get more into the
individuals actually feeling the desire to forgive for a reason.

Alla:

Okay, that is a little easier for me to understand, but it is still 
very different from what I heard Betsy saying ¡V that she does not see 
forgiveness being a theme in the books. You are just talking about 
more concrete forgiveness, yes?

Magpie:
Given the way Snape is set up, I can't imagine Harry offering ESE!
Snape forgiveness just to forgive him without it being another jab
at Snape, showing satisfying contempt. <SNIP>

Alla:

Well,  sure that would be extremely satisfying for me, the more 
contempt Harry shows for Snape the better LOL, but this is precisely 
what I can see JKR showing Harry overcoming ¡V the contempt that is 
and understanding why Snape did those things ( I sort of agree with 
Dung that Harry needs to learn additional information about Snape in 
order to truly forgive, but I will try to answer her below)

Magpie:
So if Harry is going to forgive ESE!Snape--it could certainly be
growth. But I suspect Harry would have to be forgiving him because
he understands why Snape did these things, and can empathize or see
something good there. (The "drop of pity" Harry feels for Draco at
the end of HBP is connected not just to Draco's fear and hard
situation but to Draco's wand going down.)

Alla:

Absolutely, most most definitely. Keep in mind again that I am not 
talking about strictly evil Snape, but just any Snape, who is less 
than fully DD!M.

It can even be Snape who made a decision to kill Dumbledore on the 
Tower, because Dumbledore was indeed dying from poison, but made a 
decision of **his own volition**, without Dumbledore asking him.

It can be Life Debt Snape, it can be Grey Snape. I am sure there are 
good things to be found in those Snapes and some empathy from Harry 
to be given.

As long as we agree that Harry will grow while forgiving **any** 
Snape, I am happy ļ


Magpie:
I admit it's hard for me to envision this because it seems so much
like JKR is gearing up for compassion for Snape, for showing us that
he really did feel remorse and really did try to undo what he did.
Since these books don't seem generally forgiving, I have a hard time
imagining how this would play out.

Alla:

I guess to me it seems the contrary that all goes to the end being as 
forgiveness the key for everything.
It is not like everybody on every page forgives each other, but since 
Dumbledore does and since he is so delighted that Harry felt 
something for Tom Riddle, it seems that all roads lead there to me of 
course.
I mean DD forgives his assassin, loudly at that, no?

Magpie:
 It seems like either Harry has
got to literally recognize himself in ESE!Snape and so be able to a
connection even though Snape's as evil as he is, or Harry's
forgiveness would be more along the lines of his feelings about
Peter--he's evil, but he's beneath me. I'll let the Dementors/death
take care of him. It's hard for me to see the build-up to Harry's
forgiving ESE!Snape out of what I guess you'd call a more exalted
place.

Alla:

Would it be easier if Snape would not be strictly evil?

Magpie:

I guess the most obvious comparison for me would not be Harry
forgiving Voldemort, but Harry forgiving Peter, who also continues
to make choices to destroy Harry's happiness. Harry could certainly
forgive him, but I can't imagine him forgiving him in a way that
doesn't highlight the contempt Peter should be held in.

Alla:

The difference would be if Harry sees Snape making some other choices 
as well. IMO of course.

Dung:
<SNIP>
 So here's a question: can you *force* yourself to forgive somebody
who has not only done you horrific wrong, but that you despise from
the very core of your being? Can you *force* yourself to let go of
all that emotional baggage, not because you have some sympathy for
the situation that they were in, or the difficult choice they had to
make, but simply because you need to have forgiven them in order to
be able to defeat the Dark Lord? Or because you reckon your dead
mother would have wanted you to?

Alla, Sherry and others, can *you* forgive an ESE!Snape? If you
can't, how is Harry supposed to *without finding out some
information which changes his view of Snape and/or Snape's crimes*?

<SNIP> 
So (assuming that you've agreed with what I wrote above ¡V if you
don't, I hope you can at least understand where I'm coming from) if
we're considering Harry actually *genuinely* forgiving Snape, there
*has*, IMO, to be an element of empathy, Harry has to come into
possession of some more information about Snape which opens the door
to forgiveness.

<SNIP> 

I suppose what I'm getting at is that at the moment (end of HBP)
Harry has clearly not forgiven Snape, but if you think that he will
at some point in the future, something must change. The question is
therefore, what? If it's Snape, how is Snape going to change, and
what will precipitate this change? If it is Harry, how is Harry
going to change, and what will precipitate this change? If it is
Harry's *view* of Snape, and yet Snape is not DDM, what will Harry
learn that opens the door to forgiveness?


Alla:

Actually I completely understand where you are coming from and as I 
mentioned in my reply to Magpie agree with you in a sense that if 
Harry has to forgive Snape, any Snape, some additional information 
should be revealed to Harry and some element of empathy be there.

Then it is going to be the real forgiveness more than on paper one, 
yes.

So, sure something should change. Where we may disagree I suppose is 
what change that would be.

I think that what Lily would have wanted may influence Harry decision 
very very strongly.  As in my mother sacrificed herself for me, she 
is basically a saint and if she saw something good in Snape, maybe I 
should see something good as well, you know? That kind of thing.

And since I am not talking about strictly Evil Snape only, IMO there 
are plenty of additional information that Harry may found out about 
Snape like that.

For example, Harry may learn that Snape indeed killed Dumbledore 
because he thought that he has no other choice and he could not help 
the white hats otherwise. I mean, I would find it very believable 
that Harry may feel some sympathy to Snape like that. Does that 
answer your question at all or did I make it more confusing?

Alla