Would Harry forgiving Snape be character growth for him? Re: CHAPDISC: HBP 29,

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 164136

> >>Alla:
> Are we talking about different definitions of forgiveness, maybe? 
> Because semantics so often seemed to be the reason of 
> misunderstandings I run into.

Betsy Hp:
It's not so much a semantics mistake as the fact that "Forgiveness" 
itself and what it entails is a matter often discussed by theologians 
and philosophers without agreement.  So I'm not expecting that we'll 
arrive at total agreement here.

> >>Alla: 
> I mean, I see what Dumbledore did to Draco is complete and absolute 
> forgiveness. Otherwise, I would have seen Dumbledore talking that 
> Draco deserves to be punished, not come to hiding with his family.

Betsy Hp:
And I don't. <g>  People go into Witness Protection all the time.  
The FBI doesn't claim to have forgiven all their past sins.  It's 
generally a very tit for tat arrangement, which is not a part of 
forgiveness, IMO.

I do agree that Dumbledore helped Draco expand his own view of 
himself.  And I also agree that Dumbledore saw beyond Draco's past 
actions.  But I don't recall him saying anything to the extent 
of "all is forgiven".  Not in a "complete and absolute" sort of way.  
(Draco could well be expected to seek forgiveness from Ron, Katie and 
even Bill Weasley in the future.)

> >>Alla:
> And Tom Riddle? Dumbledore may have certainly hold LV responsible   
> for his actions, but he seems to me to very actively **not** hold   
> Tom responsible for what he did before he came to Hogwarts, clean   
> plate and all that. You do not see it as forgiveness?
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Nope.  Not at all.  It's more Dumbledore not seeing himself as God.  
He's not in a position to punish Tom for wrongs commited in the 
orphanage (though he does "encourage" Tom to return the things he 
stole).  The hope that Tom might move in a different direction once 
among his peers doesn't suggest a forgiveness of past mistakes, IMO, 
more an opportunity for Tom to move beyond them.
 
> >>Betsy Hp:
> > Gosh, not even Snape (seen as loyal by Dumbledore) gets a scene   
> > in which Dumbledore suggests that all is forgiven.

> >>Alla:
> Well, sure we see no scene like that, but IMO it is implied very 
> strongly when DD tells Harry how remorseful Snape was, that was the 
> greatest regret of his life, etc. 

Betsy Hp:
Hmm...actually I agree with you there.  I think Dumbledore must have 
forgiven Snape for his role in the Potters' deaths (and any other 
Death Eater actions).  However, you'll note that it's based on 
Snape's remorse.  Something Dumbledore took as genuine.  So the 
forgiveness isn't of a blanket sort at all; it's action based.  Nor 
does it suggest that all is better in Snape-land.  It just means 
*Dumbledore* believes in him.

> >>Betsy Hp: 
> > And one thing the books certainly don't do is encourage anyone to 
> > forgive evil, if Voldemort equals evil.
> > <snip>

> >>Alla:
> I think the books do not encourage to forgive Voldemort, but not   
> the evil itself, or the other characters that represent it. Per JKR 
> Voldemort is a sociopath, basically nothing can help him IMO.

Betsy Hp:
Right.  But does she then suggest (or does Dumbledore suggest) that 
Voldemort should be forgiven?  That Voldemort (or the evil he 
represents) not be destroyed?  I haven't seen anything in the books 
that says as much.  The Basilisk is killed, not sent to training 
school.

> >>Alla:
> What foreshadows such thing? For example Dumbledore offering to     
> take Lucius in hiding as well. Lucius Malfoy somehow deserves to go 
> to hiding instead of Azkaban? What is it if not blank forgiveness?

Betsy Hp:
I thought Dumbledore was going to leave Lucius "safe" in Azkaban?  
But even if he did offer to hide Lucius from Voldemort's wrath, I 
don't equate that with forgiveness.  If a prisoner is threatened by 
an outside source, the prison system would (I expect) move that 
prisoner, even hide him if necessary.  It doesn't mean the prisoner 
has been forgiven.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > This flavor Snape is as much a copy of Peter Pettigrew as ESE!   
> > Snape is a copy of Voldemort.  Harry does not, and is not        
> > encouraged to, forgive Peter.  So why would he forgive Snape?

> >>Alla:
> But, but I stated the reasons. He may forgive Snape because he can 
> see Snape from Lily eyes, because despite the fact that Snape had 
> done some major major wrongs, he also did some good things,         
> something Harry can empathise with or something like that.

Betsy Hp:
Because of the nature of these books, I honestly don't think Snape 
can be seen as worthy of any sort of forgiveness *unless* he's on 
Dumbledore's side.  *That's* the good thing that Harry can empathise 
with that allows Harry to forgive the classroom antics.  Seeing the 
DDM!Snape is seeing Snape through Lily's eyes.

However, if Snape is not loyal to Dumbledore, than Lily never really 
saw him (much as she didn't really see Peter).  If Snape is not loyal 
to Dumbledore, there's not an action I can think of that would break 
through his cold-blooded murder of Dumbledore for Harry.

The most I could see from Harry for a non-DDM!Snape is a sort of 
horrified pity.  But not a sense that past wrongs should not be fully 
paid for. 

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <SNIP>
> > Hmm... I suppose Alla is thinking that the remorse, redemption, 
> > rebirth phase of (anything but DDM!)Snape's story will all get 
> > crammed into DH?
> > <snip>
> > And finally, it puts too much growth onto Snape. Snape will be    
> > where the action is, while Harry doesn't grow too much at all.

> >>Alla:
> What growth of Snape? In this scenario he would still be the same 
> man, just Harry would see **some** good things that Snape did in   
> the past and that would help Harry undergo some major growth where 
> Harry would be able to see something good that Snape did **in the   
> past** which will help Harry to forgive.

Betsy Hp:
So no redemption, but somehow forgiveness?  I just cannot see it.  
There is nothing in the books to suggest that this is a possible 
theme or something JKR wants Harry to learn.

I do think that redemption is a theme within the books.  So if your 
scenario doesn't include redemption, I feel it's even less likely to 
occur.  (My opinion of course. <g>)

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > Of course, my view completely changes when we look towards a DDM!
> > Snape.  Because *that's* a Snape that I can see Harry needing to 
> > forgive.  Snape has treated Harry badly, and Harry does need to   
> > let his anger at such treatment go.  
> > <SNIP>
> > *That's* the sort of forgiveness I can see occuring in the "Harry 
> > grows up" story line.  But not forgiveness of evil.  Whether that 
> > evil is straight-up (Snape as Voldemort) or whiny (Snape as       
> > Peter).

> >>Alla:
> Okay, you can see this sort of forgiveness occuring, I just do not 
> see how JKR is prevented from showing another sort of forgiveness.

Betsy Hp:
Because so far as I've seen JKR hasn't shown forgiveness without 
redemption.

> >>Alla:
> The one which DD gave to his assassin to be and the one who almost 
> killed two students. The one that DD gave to the merciless bully of 
> kids in the orphanage. The one that DD was ready to give to Lucius 
> and Narcissa. I mean, is it not the forgiveness of evil? IMO it is.

Betsy Hp:
Again, I don't see Dumbledore as having forgiven either Narcissa or 
Lucius.  And Dumbledore doesn't just blankly "forgive" Draco.  He 
offers Draco a chance to *not* become something, and he offers the 
possibility of redemption.

But in no shape or form do I see this as Dumbledore forgiving evil.  
The Malfoy family is too human to be evil incarnate.  Voldemort has 
lost enough humanity that he's coming pretty close.

> >>Alla:
> And since Harry is supposed to learn DD lessons, I can absolutely   
> see Harry practicing on Snape.

Betsy Hp:
I just don't see this as a lesson Dumbledore has taught (or even 
exemplified).  And I don't see it as a lesson Harry is even capable 
of learning or acting on.  I like what Carol says here:

> >>Carol:
> <snip>
> So as far as I can see, forgiving DDM!Snape promotes Harry's       
> progress toward growing up and toward defeating Voldemort.         
> Forgiving any other kind of Snape is either too much to expect of   
> Harry or insufficiently tied in with the compassion a hero must    
> feel for the people he is trying to save, none of them wholly good 
> or evil, and none, even the most powerful and talented, able to    
> save themselves.

Betsy Hp:
I agree that this sort of thing is beyond Harry.  I just want him to 
get past his anger enough to see the humanity in people who think 
differently from him.  But I certainly don't expect him to forgive 
evil.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > [An aside: This was a fairly hard post to write for some reason. 
> > <snip>

> >>Alla:
> Sorry about that? Being hard to write I mean.

Betsy Hp:
Oh, nothing to apologize for!  It just makes me think, that's all.  
Generally, a good thing. <g>

Betsy Hp