Would Harry forgiving Snape be character growth for him? Re: CHAPDISC: HBP 29,

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 164164

Alla wrote:
> >
> > Are we talking about different definitions of forgiveness, maybe?
<snip>
> > I mean, I see what Dumbledore did to Draco is complete and
absolute forgiveness. Otherwise, I would have seen Dumbledore talking
that Draco deserves to be punished, not come to hiding with his family.
<snip>

> Magpie:
<snip> I think the thing about Dumbledore and Draco is that it's true
he doesn't talk about punishment for his crimes--he actually says "no
real harm has been done."
> 
> But I also think that part of the reason he can do that is he sees
the kid suffering and so doesn't feel like he has to do that. I think
what Betsy may be referring to is the fact that Dumbledore offers
Draco the choice to say he doesn't want to kill for Voldemort. It's
not the most active of choices, but it's saying No to Voldemort. He
can offer to forgive Draco only for trying to kill him--only Ron and
Katie and their families can forgive Draco for the other things.
<snip> Can Dumbledore forgive for someone else? I feel like it's a
slightly different thing there. I'd describe it again as giving a
second chance rather than forgiving him, because it's not 
Dumbledore's right to forgive someone for harm done to someone else
(like wtih Ron and Katie).
> 
> I think that's the distinction I'd make in all these things. You can
only forgive trespasses against yourself. <snip>

Carol responds:

I agree with Magpie that you can only forgive trespasses against
yourself ("Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass
against us), so Dumbledore doesn't really have anything to forgive
regarding Voldemort or Snape, neither of whom has injured him
personally. He can forgive Draco (decline or cease to feel resentment
against him) for attempting or wanting to kill him (I think he
declines to feel resentment, much less seek vengeance), but I think
what he actually shows Draco (and the young Snape) is mercy,
compassion or forbearance shown to an offender, usually one over whom
the merciful person has some power (which is why Draco, the one
holding the wand, doesn't understand Dumbledore's mercy--he thinks
that he's the one controlling the situation).

Harry showed Wormtail mercy in the sense of forbearance (not
compassion like DD's for Draco), but he didn't forgive him (cease to
feel resentment or desire punishment for Wormtail's crimes against
him). He was perfectly willing to send Wormtail to Azkaban, with the
Dementors for company, to be driven mad with despair or die in prison.
(I'm not arguing that he *should* forgive Wormtail, who has shown
himself to be a self-serving coward willing to murder an innocent boy
and restore Voldemort to his body using Dark maagic. I see no sign or
remorse or repentance in him, or even of regret for betraying the
Potters to their deaths.) 

It's *possible* that Harry will be in a position to show Snape mercy
(as, BTW, Snape showed Harry mercy in rescuing him from the Crucio and
deflecting his curses rather than cursing him in return even though
Harry was trying to injure *him* and calling him coward), but that's
unlikely given Snape's superior duelling skills and his abilities as a
Legilimens and Occlumens. It's hard to imagine Harry having Snape at
an advantage, but I sincerely hope that he *would* choose not to take
revenge in that situation. To kill or Crucio him in such a situation
would be an act of cowardice, as Harry knows full well ("Kill me like
you kille him, you coward!"). But even if Harry were somehow in a
position to show Snape the sort of strained mercy that he showed to
Wormtail, that's not the same thing as *forgiving* him--ceasing to
resent him and seek vengeance against him.

Even though, theoretically, it's possible to forgive someone without
understanding them (as the parents of five murdered Amish girls
recently forgave the murderer, on principle), in Harry's case,
forgiveness will almost certainly require understanding (and
compassion like the Amish parents felt for the murderer of their
children). Harry thinks he knows Snape and his motives. His resentment
against him is not abstract resentment against a stranger who happened
to kill or be involved in the deaths of people close to Harry but a
personal vendetta against him for the eavesdropping and the murder of
Dumbledore. To forgive him for these very real trespasses, he'll have
to let go of the imagined ones (Snape's supposed responsibility for
Sirius Black's death) and his own desire to punish Snape for real and
perceived unfairness in his teaching methods. He'll have to understand
why Snape killed Dumbledore (in part, I think, to protect Harry
himself; "right vs. easy" isn't nearly as clearcut in this instance as
Harry thinks it is), and accept Snape's remorse for the eavesdropping,
and DD's murder, as real. I don't think that he could forgive an OFH!
or ESE!Snape, but I do believe that forgiving a DDM!Snape (who is no
saint, has no love for Harry, and has deeply injured him but also
feels genuine remorse and genuine loyalty to Dumbledore) is an
essential step toward Harry's defeating Voldemort through Love.

At any rate, I'm trying to distinguish between mercy, such as
Dumbledore showed to Draco on the tower, and forgiveness, such as I
think Harry will have to show to (DDM!)Snape. I suppose that he could
forgive some other variety of Snape, but I don't see why he would do
so, and how it would be different from forgiving Wormtail or Bellatrix
or Voldemort, which he hasn't done and which I don't expect him to do.
Snape is another matter. He has a personal vendetta against Snape that
is interfering with the eventual defeat of Voldemort through Love, and
Snape alone of the Death Eaters has shown remorse (Karkaroff's
cowardly and self-serving defection doesn't count) and risked his life
to serve the cause of defeating Voldemort.

Carol, hoping that she's made some useful distinctions and at least
clarified her own position even if she hasn't persuaded anyone to
change their minds on this topic