The Irma/Eileen Theory

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 164188

lealess wrote:
>
> There's an interesting discussion going on elsewhere (Snapecast 
> Episode 9 interviewing PAM2002 of Leaky Lounge and Sylvanawood's 
> LiveJournal) about Irma Pince being Snape's mother or grandmother.
  
> The last thing I saw in HPFGU about this was 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/156280, between 
> wynnleaf and juli17ptf, where they essentially agreed this could be 
> true.  To recap the evidence as it is now being discussed:
> 
> 1) The anagram, "I'm A Prince - Irma Pince" -- similar to "I Am Lord 
> Voldemort," although JKR had to stretch for the latter one.
> 
> 2) The physical similarity, made more pronounced in HPB (hooked
nose, parchment-like skin).

Carol responds:
I can see the anagram being a possibility, though I doubt that JKR
would repeat this particular trick or device. But I read
"parchmentlike skin" as meaning old and wrinkled, rather like a
crepe-paper neck--hardly applicable to Snape, who is in his thirties
throughout the books the same age as Lupin, who is twice referred to
as "young" or "quite young"). Snape's skin is referred to frequently
as "sallow" and occasionally as "pale." We aren't told Madam Pince's
skin color. Snape's large hooked nose may resemble Pince's, but the
skin connection is simply not there, IMO. Now if we knew her hair
color or eye color. . . .

lealess:
<snip>
> 4) Pince's extra-effective (darkish?) library science skills. 
"Madam Pince has been known to add some unusual hexes and jinxes at
times, besides the usual collection of library book spells." Quidditch
Through the Ages, as quoted by Sylvanawood.

Carol:
Madam Pince also thoroughly disapproves of the marginal notes in
Harry's Potions book, which he has "desecrated" and I forget what
else. Would someone who's fanatically protective of books have a son
or grandson who interacts with them by underlining, crossing out, and
writing in the margins? (Which, BTW, is what I normally do to books I
own and have been known to do, in pencil, to a library book. Shh!
Don't tell Madam Pince!) I wouldn't be surprised if Madam Pince is a
Slytherin, though. The Hogwarts staff seems rather short on them.
> 
lealess:
> 5) Pince's remaining at Hogwarts over the summer (Sylvanawood: "If 
> you look at that funny little check-out page of Quidditch Through
the Ages, you see that people borrow it from the library all through
the year").  In fact, Pince never seems to leave the library, except
for the funeral at the end of HBP -- and some speculate that may have
 been Snape in disguise, not Pince, who may be unable to leave the 
library. 

Carol:
Which in itself is a bit odd, don't you think? How can students borrow
a book over the summer if they're all on holiday? Just how do students
return books due on 3 July or 12 august? By owl, I suppose. Maybe they
magically check themselves in. But even if Madam Pince checks them in
herself because, like Hagrid, she has no other home, that doesn't mean
she's Snape's mother or grandmother (more likely grandmother, given
her age and name. Eileen became Eileen Snape. Also, she was a
Gobstones champion--deosn't seem like the kind of personality to
become a librarian. Of course, anything is possible (even a flirtation
between Madam Pince and Filch, for which we at least have some canon
evidence. Ergh). And she could be a "protected person" (like Hagrid
and Trelawney) for reasons other than being Snape's relative.
> 
> 6) Random things: similar irritable behavior, a "pincers-spider" 
> correlation, books everywhere at Spinner's End.

Carol:
I don't know about the "pincers-spider connection," but the books at
Spinner's End weren't collected to be protected by a vulturelike
librarian. They're there, I'd bet every galleon I never owned, to be
read (and no doubt written in--I'd love to see Snape's marginal notes!)

lealess:
The theory also humanizes Snape, showing that love of a kind can be a
motivating factor for him.

Carol:
I have no doubt that Snape's mother loved him and he loved her, and
that we'll find out womething to that effect in DH, whether or not
he's related to Irma Pince. (We never see them interacting, and she
doesn't come down to Christmas dinner with DD, Snape, McGonnagall,
Trelawney, HRH, et al. in PoA.) I think he's already been humanized by
the Pensieve memory and his compassion for Narcissa, and I don't doubt
that his motives for rejecting Voldemort and turning to Voldemort will
further humanize him, whether they involve his mother/grandmother or
not. (FWIW, I used to think that Agnes the dog-faced woman was his
mother, but the name Eileen put an end to that particular
speculation--for me, at least.)
> 
lealess:
> What bothers me about this theory, however, is that it makes Snape's
return to Dumbledore less about remorse and more about opportunity, 
<snip> Snape, for his part, may just be helping Dumbledore because it
is advantageous to his family, not because he really wants to make 
amends for past actions or work for good. <snip>

Carol:
I don't think JKR will do anything to minimize Snape's remorse or its
connection with the Potters. After all, the book is about Harry. If
there's a secondary motive, I'm betting that it relates to
RAB--Regulus Black--who was not much younger than Severus and in the
same house with him. (Sirius's hatred of him could have something to
do with 'corrupting" his younger brother.) JKR's "he will have seen--"
(conveniently broken off) suggests to me that young Snape saw
Regulus's murder, which might have been a powerful force for turning
him back to Dumbledore's side ("back" is based on DD's use of the
phrase "returned to our side" in GoF) if they were friends.

lealess:
> None of this says that Snape didn't feel genuine remorse over his 
actions as a Death Eater and the revelation and subsequent 
interpretation of the Prophecy.  But, while the Irma/Eileen theory
explains many things, and perceiving the motive to save a family 
might be the only way Harry can ever forgive Snape, it still throws 
Snape into a non-redeemable area for me.  His actions, while they can
be perceived as self-sacrificing, can also be seen as selfish -- not
that saving your family is the worst motive in the world.

Carol:
I don't know about "nonredeemable," but it takes away from the focus
on loyalty to Dumbledore and remorse for the eavesdropping, and seems
to have no tie-in to the UV or the tower. Why would, erm, the
Half-Blood *Pince* listen to Dumbledore on the tower? Simple gratitude
for DD's protecting his mother? Wouldn't he just die trying to save DD
rather than killing DD in response to "Severus, please" and getting
Draco out of Hogwarts and the DEs off the tower before Harry could
jump out and fight them? Why would IS! (Irma's son) Snape stop the DE
from Crucioing Harry and order the DEs out of Hogwarts? What would
Harry and the fate of the WW matter to him? He would only care about
his mother's/grandmother's safety, of which we see no hint of interest
on his part.

All I see in any of this is an anagram, a veiled witch (suspicious
only because we've seen Mundungus disguise himself as a witch), a
similarity in noses, and a lot of coincidence. We might as well say
that Rita Skeeter is related to Sirius Black because they're both (or
were both) illegal Animagi. Possible but not likely. I think we're
seeing another Mark Evans here. Now the Finch/Pince connection may go
somewhere (Oh. I get the "pincers" pun now, but spiders don't have
pincers--Crabbes, erm, crabs do), but I don't think there's a
Prince/Pince connection. (On a sidenote, we have a number of persons
whose whereabouts and safety will be of some concern in DH, including
Florian Fortescue, Ollivander, Emmeline Vance if she's alive, Draco,
Snape if he's DDM!, and possibly Trelawney and/or Slughorn. Do we
really need another one?)

Carol, who finds the theory interesting but not helpful to the crucial
Snape/Harry relationship or particularly compatible with Snape's
motives as we've seen them depicted in the books