[HPforGrownups] Would Harry forgiving Snape be character growth for him? Re: CHAPDISC: HBP 29,

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 164195

Magpie:
I don't.:-) Because in HP, Harry wouldn't be wiser than Dumbledore. 
He'sbased his belief that Snape is working for Voldemort not on wisdom but 
on
anger. Understandable anger, but anger that makes him *unwise.* It makes 
himlook for evidence that supports what he wants to be true, and it doesn't
come from his heart or the still portion of his mind, but his angry 
desirefor Snape to be wholly evil. (And also on his anger at things Snape 
hasdone, like kill Dumbledore right in front of him--everybody believes 
Snape'sevil after that.)

Alla:
But that is what I am trying to say and obviously not saying well. If Harry 
is right about Snape, he does not need to go and look for additional 
evidence, the evidence is right  there, in front of him, starting from Snape 
treating Harry like dirt in the classroom and
escalating to Harry learning ( he did not go looking for this one either, it 
came to him, lol) that he gave Prophecy to Voldemort and going to the peak 
of it on the Tower.So, I guess I disagree that Harry based his belief that 
Snape works for LV based on anger. Oh, as we all know Harry is really, 
really, really angry with Snape, but he is angry because of what happened, 
so I am trying to say that Harry's wisdom in this situation may be shown as 
**seeing** clearly of what is happening around him in this situation. Not 
that he has those extraordinary powers of perception, just that he does not 
close his eyes to the obvious, as Dumbledore did, if Snape is not loyal to 
him.

Magpie:
But the point is, if it's "evidence" that Snape is working for Voldemort 
that he treats Harry badly in class and gave the Prophecy to Voldemort then 
it's saying that someone being not nice to you means that they're working 
for the bad guy, and that people can't change. Not only are those fairly 
superifical, they both seem to be themes that the author's specifically 
working *against*. They're not evidence of Snape's loyalties anymore than 
Fake!Moody's treatment of Malfoy shows he's anti-Voldemort.

Harry spent the whole first book thinking Snape is trying to steal the Stone 
because of Snape's behavior and he wasn't right. He made assumptions based 
on Quirrel's demeanor vs. Snape's (with Snape's behavior towards Harry as a 
starting point). Dumbledore knew that Snape gave the Prophecy to Voldemort 
back then--and Snape still wasn't trying to steal the Stone.

Magpie:
If Harry was right about Snape it wouldn't be because Harry has a feeling 
for these things--if Snape had been the same person and been nice to
Harry I doubt Harry would have thought this way about him (he didn't with 
Fake!Moody, for instance). His wisdom would just be that he really doesn't
like people who treat him like dirt.

Alla:

Yes, what I said as well - certainly not extraordinary powers of perception, 
but just not closing his eyes and um, of course if Snape treated him 
differently Harry would not have thought about him that way.
He would have no reasons too. Observe fake Moody, certainly Harry did not 
see his evilness because of Moody treating him nicely.There was no 
**obviousness** in Fake Moody behavior IMO, and who knows maybe in case of 
Snape it would be obvious.

Magpie:
But Harry isn't seeing things others are not. Everyone sees how Snape treats 
Harry, including Dumbledore. Only Dumbledore has more information and has a 
view of Snape that incorportates him being on DD's side and being a jerk to 
Harry at the same time. Harry doesn't seem to have put quite as much 
reasoning into his own view of Snape being guilty. He's never approached the 
problem strictly rationally, and considers the idea of Dumbledore's version 
to be impossible based on his own limited interactions with Snape when those 
interactions don't cover Snape as a whole person.

Magpie:
The other importance difference is that Luke, unsurprisingly, is the onewith 
Dumbledore's view--the view that is more hopeful and sees human beings
as more complex and redeemable. It's fine for the hero to surpass thementor, 
but he needs, imo, to stand for something bigger than the mentor if
he's going to do it, like Luke did. The risk Luke takes is more in 
keepingwith his power being love, I think, than would be a Harry who was 
right
about Snape, but didn't spend the rest of his life angry over it.

Alla:

Yes, as I said I was analogizing the **principle** - Hero being right and 
his mentor being wrong, NOT what they were right and wrong about.And in this 
situation Harry being right may stay for the humongous importance of 
learning why to trust people for yourself and not relying on second hand 
trust.I understand unwillingness of seeing JKR teaching that lesson ( not 
yours, DD!M Snape theorists in general), but I see nothing in the
books that prevents her from exploring that angle.
In fact, members of the Order looking like total idiots (IMO) with theirs we 
trusted him because DD did, may hint IMO that JKR really wants Harry not to 
be like them in years to come, IMO of course.

Magpie:
I suspect she's going for both by having Harry not trust Snape based on 
Dumbledore's word, but later coming to agree with him through his own 
experience. I think she started something similar with Draco--imagine, for 
instance, if it had been Ron under the Invisibility Cloak in the Tower who 
now had a drop of pity for Malfoy. I can't imagine Harry trusting Ron's 
assessment of the situation there and stopping thinking that everything in 
HBP just proved Malfoy was even worse than he thought he was and a DE 
through and through.

Not trusting people based on what others say is fine--but it's not a lesson 
Harry can learn because he's never done it. It's more like everyone else 
having to learn they should trust Harry's instincts over Dumbledore's. But 
if Snape's nastiness in class and his prior bad acts are evidence that 
anyone should have seen to know that Snape couldn't be DDM, that's a rather 
closed-minded view of human nature, and one that's not really true in 
reality--or in the books.

Alla:
Having said all that though, I must say that IF Snape is not fully DD!M and 
Harry would be at least partially right about his nature, I strongly suspect 
that JKR would not place much importance on Harry
being wiser than DD or something like that.I think that would be shown as 
unfortunate thing, that is just
happened and Harry forgiving that Snape too. And Harry would be shown as 
accepting DD lessons in forgiveness and/or mercy LOL and giving the bastard 
third or fourth chance.

Magpie:
I think she'd have to explain how Dumbledore was tricked--the DEs were 
right, apparently, and he's just a sucker for a sob story (which doesn't 
seem IC based on what I've seen of DD). I think Harry's already partially 
right about Snape's nature in that he certainly gets that Snape hates him 
(even before anyone tells him that). He sees him being petty. It's not like 
in some theories where Snape's behavior towards *Harry* is explained away as 
part of the Master Plan. If there was no Voldemort storyline and Harry just 
thought Snape was a jerk teacher who was unfair to him, and other people 
said he wasn't really unfair to him, Harry would be completely right. He's 
often predicted Snape's behavior and been right about it when it came to 
their interactions in class.

Of course, Harry also says that Snape's a great guy who wouldn't really want 
anyone to get hurt or ever be into Dark Magic--oops.

Carol:
<SNIP of the whole post basically>
> I'll be very surprised if Harry, who has been wrong so often, turns
> out to be wiser than Dumbledore from the age of eleven, and to have
> learned nothing about judging people and things based on more than
> appearance in seven books.

Alla:

Harry clearly learns to not judge people by appearance IMO, it is just a 
possibility to me that he may learn that lesson not on the example of Snape.

He does not judge Luna by her appearances anymore in HBP. Despite all 
appearances he listens to Sirius in PoA.

So, I see plenty of possibilities for Harry to learn that lesson, and if 
just so happens that Snape's appearances are what they are, oh well.

Magpie:
I think Carol chose a slightly off word in that post when she said 
"appearance." Harry doesn't judge by appearance with Snape but by how Snape 
treats him and feels about him. That's not an issue with Luna. She likes 
Harry throughout OotP. There's no moment where Harry realizes he's been 
*wrong* about Luna or misjudged her or accused her unfairly--she's just as 
odd as she's always seemed. With Sirius Harry never judges him as a person 
because he doesn't know him. He's just believes the wrong story, but when 
Sirius shows up and explains himself Harry understand the right version. The 
one place Harry's had this kind of lesson before is in GoF with Fake!Moody 
where he did seem primarily swayed by Moody's liking and disliking the right 
people. But Harry wasn't personally invested in Fake!Moody the way he is 
with Snape. He didn't do half as much work trying to make Fake!Moody fit his 
view of him as he does with Snape.

It's only with the Slytherins there's an issue of Harry disliking the person 
intensely, and being disliked in return, and so seeing them as the most 
likely suspects in crimes that sometimes have nothing to do with them.

-m