Would Harry forgiving Snape be character growth for him? Re: CHAPDISC: HBP 29,

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 164196

> Magpie:
> But the point is, if it's "evidence" that Snape is working for 
Voldemort 
> that he treats Harry badly in class and gave the Prophecy to 
Voldemort then 
> it's saying that someone being not nice to you means that they're 
working 
> for the bad guy, and that people can't change.
<SNIP>

Alla:

It is showing who Snape **is**, yes, if it is what they are and you 
know, sometimes people indeed do **not** change, so I would say it 
would be the lesson of Snape not able to change, not people in 
general.

As an aside, but it is sort of relevant. Couple months ago me and my 
friend managed to have a very long Harry Potter related 
conversation, like couple hours long ( he does not go on Internet 
discussing HP, so I consider his brains to be untainted by all the 
theories, lol)

We discussed many topics and of course we talked about Slytherin 
house a little bit, so I figured I would play a little devil 
advocate and started saying, oh why would she even imply that there 
are could be evil eleven years old, unless she pulls the rug and 
shows us that Slytherin house is prejudiced against, etc.

My friend looked at me as if I had a third eye or something and said 
that he met evil five years old and he was not joking. He thinks 
that character at eleven year old is fully formed and if there is a 
propensity to share that purebloodist ideology, it would be there at 
eleven. My friend does not think that they are all evil, but that it 
is not that unrealistic that plenty of them are.


How is it relevant to Snape not changing? Well, just that as in case 
of Slytherin house, it is just possible that Snape has not changed 
**yet**, but that he may change at the end, to commit one redemptive 
act, but not because that he was DD!M all along, but because he 
would see Harry in new light. OR he may not change indeed because 
that is who he is.


Magpie:
 Not only are those fairly 
> superifical, they both seem to be themes that the author's 
specifically 
> working *against*. They're not evidence of Snape's loyalties 
anymore than 
> Fake!Moody's treatment of Malfoy shows he's anti-Voldemort.

Alla:

I do not see that author specifically works against of the evidence 
that someone who treats you like dirt in classroom is working for 
Voldemort.

It may not be so, but I think that it is way too early to say so 
with certainty.

Sure, Fake Moody treated Malfoy badly and he is Voldemort servant, 
but Lupin treats everybody nicely and he is not Voldemort servant ( 
unless you are Pippin of course ;))

I just do not see the trend, I think she deals with every case 
individually and in case of Snape I sure can see the possibility 
that he was treating Harry badly AND Voldemort's servant.


Magpie:
> Harry spent the whole first book thinking Snape is trying to steal 
the Stone 
> because of Snape's behavior and he wasn't right. He made 
assumptions based 
> on Quirrel's demeanor vs. Snape's (with Snape's behavior towards 
Harry as a 
> starting point). Dumbledore knew that Snape gave the Prophecy to 
Voldemort 
> back then--and Snape still wasn't trying to steal the Stone.

Alla:

The possibility is that JKR showed to us that Harry was seemingly 
wrong, wrong, wrong about Snape for six books and oooops, he really 
was not. :)

And Snape may have been doing exactly what he tells Bella and 
Narcissa in Spinner end, no?


 
>> Magpie:
> But Harry isn't seeing things others are not. Everyone sees how 
Snape treats 
> Harry, including Dumbledore. Only Dumbledore has more information 
and has a 
> view of Snape that incorportates him being on DD's side and being 
a jerk to 
> Harry at the same time. Harry doesn't seem to have put quite as 
much 
> reasoning into his own view of Snape being guilty. He's never 
approached the 
> problem strictly rationally, and considers the idea of 
Dumbledore's version 
> to be impossible based on his own limited interactions with Snape 
when those 
> interactions don't cover Snape as a whole person.

Alla:

There is information missing for sure, but we do not know that 
Harry's interactions with Snape do not cover Snape as whole person. 
I remember the argument being made in the past that Snape does not 
spend nearly as much time thinking about Harry when Harry is not in 
front of him, as Harry thinks about Snape.

I think now we had been given a possibility that Snape may have been 
doing just that - thinking about James and Harry if not all the 
time, but a lot of time.

I think it is completely possible that all that it there to be would 
turn out about Snape's grudge and everything went from there. IMO of 
course.


 
>> Magpie:
> I suspect she's going for both by having Harry not trust Snape 
based on 
> Dumbledore's word, but later coming to agree with him through his 
own 
> experience.

Alla:

Possibly, or it would be Harry seeing who Snape is and still 
learning Dumbledore's lesson of second chances, without closing his 
eyes to who Snape is, without believing his spinning tales, just 
seeing his reasons for doing things and still forgiving it.


Magpie:
 I think she started something similar with Draco--imagine, for 
> instance, if it had been Ron under the Invisibility Cloak in the 
Tower who 
> now had a drop of pity for Malfoy. I can't imagine Harry trusting 
Ron's 
> assessment of the situation there and stopping thinking that 
everything in 
> HBP just proved Malfoy was even worse than he thought he was and a 
DE 
> through and through.

Alla:

Sure, I can see that. Do not want to, but can :)


Magpie:
> Not trusting people based on what others say is fine--but it's not 
a lesson 
> Harry can learn because he's never done it. It's more like 
everyone else 
> having to learn they should trust Harry's instincts over 
Dumbledore's. But 
> if Snape's nastiness in class and his prior bad acts are evidence 
that 
> anyone should have seen to know that Snape couldn't be DDM, that's 
a rather 
> closed-minded view of human nature, and one that's not really true 
in 
> reality--or in the books.

Alla:

Sorry, but I disagree. How is it closed minded? There are evil 
people in the world, there are people who do not change, there are 
people who change, there are people who really really try to change 
but fail eventually ( maybe Snape is one of them)

If Snape is an evil git or just the one who honestly wanted to go 
back to light, but some sort of temptation stopped him from it, how 
is it close minded if Harry sees it?

Those things happen and I believe Harry can learn valuable lesson 
from that as well.


 
> Magpie:
> I think she'd have to explain how Dumbledore was tricked--the DEs 
were 
> right, apparently, and he's just a sucker for a sob story (which 
doesn't 
> seem IC based on what I've seen of DD). 


Alla:

Why though? I could never understand that. Giving people second 
chances is good, I could never never consider it to be DD mistake. 
Whether he was fooled or not, it is great that he believes in second 
chances. It is the fault of the fool who does not appreciate being 
given second chance IMO. I would not blame DD one yota for that, if 
Snape fooled him. I would sympathise with him even more.


Magpie:
I think Harry's already partially 
> right about Snape's nature in that he certainly gets that Snape 
hates him 
> (even before anyone tells him that). He sees him being petty. It's 
not like 
> in some theories where Snape's behavior towards *Harry* is 
explained away as 
> part of the Master Plan. If there was no Voldemort storyline and 
Harry just 
> thought Snape was a jerk teacher who was unfair to him, and other 
people 
> said he wasn't really unfair to him, Harry would be completely 
right. He's 
> often predicted Snape's behavior and been right about it when it 
came to 
> their interactions in class.

Alla:

Yes, with that part I completely agree and thank you for saying that.

 
> Magpie:
> I think Carol chose a slightly off word in that post when she said 
> "appearance." Harry doesn't judge by appearance with Snape but by 
how Snape 
> treats him and feels about him. <SNIP>

Alla:

Oh, but of course ;) Truer words cannot be spoken.

Magpie:
 It's only with the Slytherins there's an issue of Harry disliking 
the person 
> intensely, and being disliked in return, and so seeing them as the 
most 
> likely suspects in crimes that sometimes have nothing to do with 
them.

Alla:

Sometimes, yes and sometimes the crimes do connected with them :)