CHAPDISC: HBP 29, The Phoenix Lament

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 164253

Dungrollin's Discussion questions:

> 1. This chapter is a nice opportunity for JKR to show us a variety 
of characters' reactions to the same emotional upheaval - 
Dumbledore's death. Did any of their reactions particularly inspire 
sympathy in you? Which character reacted most similarly to you? Is 
that character one you normally sympathise or identify with?

Ceridwen:
Sympathy:  Hagrid.  Similar to my own reaction or what those would be 
in similar situations:  McGonagall and Slughorn.

> 2. (Take off your DDM!Snape hats for this one, please.) In this 
chapter, McGonagall and Tonks ask the same questions that fans have 
been asking for years, namely: what did Snape tell Dumbledore to make 
him trust him? Do you think, given Lupin, McGonagall and Tonks's 
astonishment at Harry's story, that *even if Snape really has* 
betrayed the Order and rejoined Voldemort, there still must have been 
more than a `tale of remorse' to how he hoodwinked Dumbledore? How do 
you think ESE!Snape (or similar variants) could have convinced him? 
What themes that the books have already visited would Snape's tale 
(and the fact that it was fake) resonate with, and how could his 
ability to fool Dumbledore reflect upon Harry's
story?

Ceridwen:
I try not to wear hats on the board: people might think I'm in a gang.

Yes, I do think there must have been more than a 'tale of remorse' to 
convince Dumbledore of Snape's switch.  Dumbledore offers mercy, he 
offers second chances, but I believe he also watches quietly and 
makes his assessments from his observations.  I think the only way 
Snape of other-than-DDM flavor would have convinced Dumbledore of his 
sincerity would be for him to behave as if he really was remorseful - 
not just in front o f DD, but at times when he thought DD wasn't 
watching.  No sneaking around, watching over his shoulder to see if 
the Guy with the Beard was there.

> 3. Assuming Hermione's account of events in Snape's office is 
accurate, what do you make of her and Luna's gullibility? Are you 
annoyed that they didn't realise immediately that Snape had stupefied 
Flitwick and try to stop him? Since Ron, Neville and Ginny weren't 
much more use when confronted by the Peruvian Darkness Powder, and 
only made it through the fight because of the Felix Felicis, have 
your views on how useful the DA really was changed?

Ceridwen:
They weren't gullible.  Snape was a teacher, and an Order member, and 
he told them that Flitwick needed help.  Hermione and Luna are not as 
suspicious as Harry and wouldn't react in an automatically suspicious 
way.

I think the DA did what it was intended to do: teach the practical 
defensive spells and strategies that weren't being taught in class.  
The ones who joined learned something, and worked together on their 
spells much like Snape had them working together on spells in sixth 
year DADA.  Since a student was leading the club, that student 
wouldn't have been able to teach how to deal with Peruvian Darkness 
Powder, which was introduced to him and the readers a year later.  
Harry taught what he knew and what he had researched, but even an 
experienced teacher would not have been able to teach everything in 
one school year.

> 4. What do you make of McGonagall saying (of Snape) "He must have 
known a spell we didn't [
] After all, he was the Defence against the 
Dark Arts teacher?" We all know Snape had been teaching potions for 
fifteen years before that, so what do you make of this sudden respect 
for his knowledge of DADA? Do you think the teaching posts confer 
something special on their holders? Does this give us any clues as to 
why Voldemort particularly wanted to have the DADA job? Or do you 
think McGonagall could be alluding in some way to the curse?

Ceridwen:
I think she was speaking from hindsight.  This wasn't spoken in the 
middle of battle.

I don't think the post confers any special powers on its holder, or 
anyone could be roped in off the street to teach.  I think she was 
merely saying that she would expect the DADA professor to know more 
about spells like that and how to get around them than the 
Transfiguration teacher would, perhaps because of special study in 
that field.  Heh.  Maybe she wondered why he hadn't been tapped for 
the post when they couldn't get anyone before.

> 5. Molly doesn't give one single sign that she cares at all that 
Dumbledore's dead, she doesn't react when McGonagall assures Arthur 
that it's true, nor does she ask Harry or the others if they're all 
right; she only has eyes for Bill. Do you find that surprising? How 
do you interpret her different reactions to the dramas at the ends of 
CoS, GoF and HBP, and how do they reflect upon her assertion in OotP 
that Harry is as good as her son?

Ceridwen:
I would have found it more surprising if she had left Billy laying 
there to take part in the discussion.  This is her son, her eldest, 
horribly mutilated and with his fate in question.  It's possible that 
the discussion was only peripheral noise to her through much of the 
scene, like the chatter from a television when Real Life intrudes on 
the rest of us.

> 6. In ch5 p92 (UK ed.) Molly says (of Bill and Fleur) "It was the 
same last time he was powerful, people eloping right left and centre –
" yet Lupin seems here to be an exception, holding out against this 
all-too-human reaction in times of war. Do you find this consistent 
with his character? Given the close friends he has lost, do you 
understand him wanting to keep Tonks at arm's length, or do you agree 
with Molly that he's being ridiculous? How does his behaviour 
regarding Tonks compare with Harry's later break-up with Ginny?

Ceridwen:
Lupin's reaction is understandable.  He probably didn't have a close 
girlfriend the first time around for the same reasons that he is 
keeping Tonks at arms' length, so didn't marry.  He may have resigned 
himself to a solitary life because of his affliction.  He doesn't 
seem to put himself forward to people that much, which I read as due 
to his being a werewolf.  He keeps a low profile.  And after seeing 
Greyback, I can see why he might not want to even give the impression 
he's anything like him.

But, Molly's right.  Tonks is a big girl and is capable of assessing 
the risks and the benefits of a relationship with Lupin.  His 
reaction is ridiculous.  He needs to try it out, at least, to see if 
they both feel the same way weeks or months later.  Sometimes, just 
trying it out would give them both an idea of what such a 
relationship might be like, and would give them both more of an idea 
of wheter or not it would work.  Of course, he might think that would 
just be getting his hopes up to be dashed.

I don't think the Remus/Tonks 'ship reflects the Harry/Ginny 'ship at 
all.  Harry didn't try to keep her away, his only concern was what 
his best friend, Ron, might think.  Harry broke up with Ginny because 
he wants to protect her (careful, Harry, she didn't like Dean helping 
her through the door), and because he will be on a secret assignment 
where he doesn't need the baggage of a relationship.

> 7. Do you think that the fact that Dumbledore's portrait is 
sleeping peacefully and looking untroubled is significant? If so, 
what do you think it signifies, and if JKR had wanted to signify the 
opposite, how do you think she would have done it?

Ceridwen:
I think it is significant, or JKR wouldn't have mentioned it in as 
much detail as she did.  I think she is trying to show that 
Dumbledore died at peace and that there were no loose ends.  If it 
had been any other way, she might have mentioned a slightly disturbed 
expression, or a sad expression, if she bothered to mention anything 
more than the new addition to the portraits at all.

> 8. What do you make of McGonagall's statement about closing the 
school: "
 I must say that Professor Dumbledore's murder is more 
disturbing to me than the idea of Slytherin's monster living 
undetected in the bowels of the castle
" Do you find this statement 
surprising? Do you agree with it? Do you think it might reflect the 
fact that she was a student at Hogwarts the first time the Chamber 
opened? Do you think it reflects JKR's opinion?

Ceridwen:
I think she took Dumbledore's death more personally than she took the 
Basilisk, though the Basilisk did distress her.  I'm not sure if 
McGonagall was around when the Chamber was opened.  Wasn't she 
a "spry seventy" in 1991?  That would have put her at 22 if the 
Chamber was opened in 1943.

I think that maybe JKR is more disturbed by Dumbledore's death than 
by the Basilisk, since it was meant to be shocking.  But I don't 
think McGonagall has moved into Dumbledore's place as JKR's 
mouthpiece.

> 9. What do you make of Slughorn's reaction to Dumbledore's death, 
his shock at Snape's culpability, his ambivalence about the school 
reopening, and his seeming reluctance that the students should stay 
for the funeral? How does this compare with his manner with 
Dumbledore in chapter four? If the school reopens, do you think he 
will stay on as potions master and head of Slytherin, and do you 
think Dumbledore's death will affect his decision?

Ceridwen:
Slughorn's reaction was one of the two I think might mirror mine in a 
similar situation.  I would be trying to wrap my head around the 
events, trying to understand (I thought I knew him!), and not wanting 
to commit myself to any new ventures until I could ascertain more 
calmly what should be done.

I think he'll stay on.  The school needs him.  I think he'll be glad 
to be gone again, though, as soon as a replacement can be found.

> 10. Do you think Harry was right not to tell McGonagall where he 
went with Dumbledore? Would you have had the courage (or 
stubbornness) to do the same at his age? Do you think that he did 
what Dumbledore would have wanted? McGonagall will almost certainly 
ask Dumbledore's portrait where he took Harry when it wakes up; what 
do you think it will tell her? Since all the portraits are sworn to 
help the current head, do you think they will tell her about the 
horcruxes? If they refused, do you think she has the potential to 
turn into an Umbridge, or worse?

Ceridwen:
First, I don't know if I would have had the courage to refuse 
McGonagall the way Harry did.  I do think he did the right thing.  
Telling a secret like that just because a person is over-wrought 
isn't a good idea.  Harry may think it over and change his mind, but 
it isn't a good idea to just start telling everything.  You may find, 
on later reflection, that maybe it wasn't a good idea after all.

The portraits may tell her something.  But I don't think they'll tell 
her right off if they ever do.  Harry's mission has nothing to do 
with running the school, it's Order business.

I don't think McGonagall could ever be like Umbridge.

> 11. Do you find it surprising that McGonagall didn't ask how Harry 
& co. knew that Malfoy was in the room of requirement? Harry didn't 
tell her what he knows about the Unbreakable Vow either (despite the 
fact that it didn't have anything to do with the Horcruxes). Do you 
think she will find out, and if she did how do you think she would 
react? What story about Malfoy and Snape should Harry be able to 
piece together from the information he has?

Ceridwen:
I think McGonagall may have known that Harry was following Malfoy 
around, so might have had some idea of where to expect him to be.  It 
was a large part of the book, after all, and she was his Head of 
House.

I think that she, and other Order members, will find out at some 
point about the Unbreakable Vow.  I don't know what they'll think.  I 
do think it will be part of the puzzle of Snape in DH.

I don't think Harry will actively be trying to piece together 
anything about Malfoy and Snape.  But I do think he'll start to see 
discrepancies.  The more discrepancies he sees, the more he'll try to 
put things together.  I can't imagine what he'll come up with based 
on what he has.  He may fight against anything sympathetic toward 
Snape if his evidence starts to go in that direction, though.

> 12. Hagrid is inconsolable; did you find his reaction to 
Dumbledore's death moving? We don't get to see what he thinks of 
Snape's apparent treachery, do you think this omission is 
conspicuous? Hagrid insists that he's staying whether the school 
opens or not, because Hogwarts is his home, even though his hut has 
just been burned down. Do you think he only wants to stay because of 
Grawp, or do you think he might have another reason that we don't 
know about?

Ceridwen:
I found Hagrid's reaction to be very moving.  I usually get a little 
impatient with his grief over things like Norbert's leaving.  But, 
he's a sensitive soul, and his grief was pure.

I don't know if he knows something more about Snape than he's 
telling.  He may only have room for grief so soon after the death.  
But, yes, the omission was conspicuous.

Hogwarts is Hagrid's home, and has been since he was a young teen.  I 
think, too, that he's staying close to Dumbledore, though Grawp might 
enter into it: responsibility at least since he was the one to bring 
his brother there.  I think he also has a duty to Hogwarts that he 
takes seriously.  His job as groundskeeper doesn't end just because 
the school might not reopen in the fall.

> 13. McGonagall will refer the decision to close the school to the 
governors; do you think that we have any canon to go on in guessing 
whether Hogwarts will reopen or not? Do you think that JKR ought to 
tell us one way or another before book 7?

Ceridwen:
I can see the Governors perhaps wanting to hear evidence for and 
against reopening the school since the protections were gotten 
around.  But earlier canon suggests to me that Hogwarts will reopen.  
It reopened after Myrtle died as far as we know, and it didn't close 
after the Chamber was opened again in Harry's second year.  I do 
think they'll want to do something with that Vanishing cabinet - 
either get rid of the one on school grounds, or obtain the other one, 
so there will be no passage into the school that way.

I don't think JKR should tell us whether the school opens or not 
until the book is released.

> 14. Do you find any of the characters' reactions to Dumbledore's 
death suspicious? Do you think that we may find out something in book 
7 which will make us view this hospital-wing scene in a different 
light (even if you can't imagine what it is yet)?

Ceridwen:
I take anything with a grain of salt where JKR's writing is 
concerned.  Everyone seemed to be grieving in their own ways, but I 
think that sooner or later someone is going to start questioning and 
poking around if nothing else.  I do think we'll have to revisit the 
hospital scene, though right now, I'm not sure why.  Maybe there are 
clues we missed the first time.

> 15. Did it surprise you that there was no mention of the 
Headmasters' and Headmistresses' portraits' reactions to McGonagall 
asking where Harry went with Dumbledore? They've often been vocal in 
the past when Harry and Dumbledore were alone together; is their 
silence in this scene conspicuous? How do you think Phineas Nigellus, 
for example, reacted to news of Dumbledore's death, and when did he 
hear?

Ceridwen:
No, I didn't notice the lack of comment from the portraits.  
McGonagall hadn't asked for their advice.  Maybe they don't know how 
far they can go with her.  Dumbledore seemed easygoing with them.

I would love to hear the portraits' reactions, though.  Especially 
Phineas Nigellus's!  I hope we get that scene.

> 16. "And he knew, without knowing how he knew it, that the phoenix 
had gone, had left Hogwarts for good, just as Dumbledore had left the 
school, had left the world 
 had left Harry." Did you find this 
ending to the chapter poignant? Does it wear off after the sixth re-
read? If we see Fawkes again in book 7, do you think we will get to 
know him as a character in his own right, or will he always be 
associated with and symbolise Dumbledore?

Ceridwen:
I think the ending is in keeping with the events of that chapter.  It 
doesn't have the same impact after the sixth re-read, but it still 
fits.

Fawkes will always be associated with Dumbledore.

Ceridwen, thanking Dungrollin for a good chapter discussion.