Christian Forgiveness and Snape (was Would Harry forgiving )

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 164317

> Pippin:
> Betrayal?
> Harry didn't give two knuts about who the eavesdropper was or what
> happened to him until he found out it was Snape. He didn't think 
it was
> his business before, so  was it really? As far as Dumbledore is 
> concerned, I think not.

Magpie:
But I think Harry has perfectly good reason to view it as a betrayal 
and as his business. It might not have been something Harry focused 
on in principle, but there's a difference between not knowing the 
name of someone who committed a crime related to you and not being 
told that an important person in your life is connected to you in 
this important way. It's his life, so it is his business.

Whether or not Dumbledore thought it was Harry's business it's not 
surprising Harry wouldn't see it that way once he found out. If I 
made the same decision as Dumbledore (in my case not because I 
didn't think it was Harry's business but because it was more 
practical for my own plans) and then the person found out and said 
that I should have shared this information with him, I think I'd 
respect his pov there in thinking he has a right to know what this 
person did to him. Especially since so much of Harry and Snape's 
relationship turns on Snape having so much more information than 
Harry does. That's one of the most compelling things in the series 
is the way JKR uses childhood as a mystery. As a kid Harry is 
walking into the story in the middle and constantly finding out that 
the adults around him are concealing knowledge from him--knowledge 
that concerns him when he learns about it. Whether it's his right to 
know this or not, other people are privvy to information that he 
isn't based on the arbitrary year he was born. Often adults conceal 
information for their own benefit.

Pippin: 
> Dumbledore's biggest problem is that he doesn't know he's in a 
book.
> He doesn't know it's inevitable that Snape and Harry will be thrown
> together for occlumency lessons or that Rowling means to ratchet
> up the tension between Harry and Snape for dramatic effect and
> will make sure every revelation about Snape makes him seem worse
> in Harry's eyes than before. 

Magpie:
Hmm...that seems to be talking about something else than I was 
talking about to Lupinlore. He asked if I thought Dumbledore was 
making an opening for Harry to forgive Snape and I just said what I 
thought Dumbledore was thinking about Harry and Snape. I'm basically 
agreeing with you, saying that Dumbledore didn't really see Harry's 
forgiving Snape being an issue--but I was using "forgiving Snape" to 
not refer specifically to Snape's being the eavesdropper but for 
being a thorn in Harry's side. Dumbledore might not have known 
they'd be thrown together for Occlumency but he sees as much as 
anyone else that Snape from the very first day starts up the feud 
again by taking out his anger at James on Harry. Once that happened 
Snape's role as the eavesdropper becomes an even more delicate 
issue. Harry would have, imo, felt just as upset if it had been 
Lupin, someone he likes, who was the eavesdropper, but Snape's even 
worse given what he knows about him. So I can't help but imagine the 
identify of the eavesdropper went a bit beyond, "It's none of his 
business so he doesn't need to know" to "I hope he doesn't find out 
because he'll flip."

Pippin:
> 
> I don't think it's the forgiveness itself that would be 
Dumbledore's
> aim. Harry has never had a problem granting forgiveness. The
> big step for Harry would be understanding the need to do it. For
> Harry to do that, he will need to see how his prejudice 
> against Snape has distorted his judgement, (if it has) and that 
> this is doing harm to the things that Harry loves.

Magpie:
I admit I don't see Harry as all that forgiving. He usually forgives 
when the other person gives in or recants (it's often rather one-
sided). If they don't they're dead to him or can stay punished 
forever. In Snape's case Harry's judgement is somewhat distorted, 
imo, but there's still genuine stuff to forgive him for. Harry's 
hatred of Snape is well-earned. Actually, this is one of the things 
that's so hilarious about Snape. He's the one who starts attacking 
Harry from the first day, as if Harry's already guilty, when Snape 
had a big hand in getting his parents killed. 

Pippin: 
> I think Harry is going to discover in some way that Snape
> is innocent of killing Dumbledore, and then he will see how
> ruinous his prejudice has been.
> 
> He will come understand that it's impossible to keep personal 
> feelings out of one's judgements in the Potterverse. He can 
> only choose whether to be blinded by love or by hate. I think 
> Harry will decide that it's better to be blinded by love and risk 
> overlooking the bad in people than to be  blinded by hate and 
> overlook the good. That, I think, is where Dumbledore wanted
> Harry to end up, but he also knew that the relatively 
> powerless may need hatred to survive.

Magpie:
There I agree. And I think when Harry sees Snape clearly he'll see 
him driven by remorse for what he did in the past as well, because 
it seems like that's really how it's set up. So it's even just that 
Snape has changed sides, but that he really was sorry about what he 
did to the Potters--even if his way of showing it isn't pleasant.

> Magpie:
>  (Sort of like how in OotP I see him saying how 
> > he's going to explain all his mistakes and then going on to 
explain everyone 
> > else's mistakes--making his mistake not expecting so many 
mistakes by 
> > others.) To me he always seems to want to forgive himself for 
all his 
> > mistakes, so we get lines like his one about the Dursleys where 
he describes 
> > Harry as a little less well-fed than he would have liked or 
whatever.
> 
> Pippin:
> It's the leader's job to analyze everyone's mistakes, not just his 
own. 
> I didn't hear Dumbledore excusing himself, except for loving Harry 
so
> much that he put Harry's present happiness above his future. He was
> mostly trying to get Harry not to put all the blame on himself. If
> that meant shifting some of the responsibility to Sirius, so be 
it. As
> painful as that was for Harry, IMO Sirius himself would rather 
> have Harry learn from his mistakes than repeat them through 
> ignorance. Harry needs to understand that old hatreds can turn
> even a kindly heart toward cruelty and injustice. Harry doesn't
> get that yet, so he doesn't understand what Dumbledore was saying
> about Sirius, but when the time comes,  he will.
> 
> Harry knows perfectly well how much he suffered at the Dursleys.
> He does not need to hear Dumbledore feeling sorry for him -- he
> hates it when people do that. 

Magpie:
That's not the way the scene read to me. It may be Dumbledore's job 
as leader to analyze things, but Harry hadn't called him in for an 
analysis meeting, Dumbledore's explaining himself because he wants 
to change the way Harry feels at that moment. Regardless of what 
Harry needed to hear or understand, Dumbledore stresses that his own 
fault was loving Harry too much while everyone else's faults are a 
bit less about caring for Harry. I have no problem with his analysis 
of either Sirius or Snape, but I'm analyzing Dumbledore too and what 
he's saying about himself. Harry's not needing to hear that he 
suffered at the Dursleys or not wanting people to feel sorry for him 
is besides the point. I don't think it's a coincidence that 
Dumbledore comes across as highly sympathetic in his own story.

Alla:
I wrote in the past that I am pretty much sold on Snape and Lily
connection, dislike that as I am ( still keeping my fingers crossed
that it was either friendship or one sided crush, but definitely am
sold on the connection)

But I never thought I would say that, but I have to say I hope not to
the argument that Snape hated Harry for Harry and not because Harry
is a living remainder of James.

Magpie:
I think Snape hates Harry because he's also a living reminder of his 
own mistake.

Alla:
Not as well fed as I would liked, but not a pampered prince (
paraphrase). I hear DD excusing himself loud and clear. Thank
goodness he admitted some of his mistakes, but IMO far from all of
them.

Magpie:
Excusing himself and including an odd comment out of nowhere. Harry 
the pampered prince seems thrown in for contrast. Harry may indeed 
not want to be felt sorry for, but he's never seemed to particularly 
want to hear his life with the Dursleys judged by anyone, has he? 
Except to hear, "Those Muggles suck." Dumbledore's giving this view 
with relation to his own behavior and describing how much he liked 
Harry. It's not really about Harry. Dumbledore's explaining his own 
behavior, not examining Harry's life with him. Harry himself might 
have wanted the person who gave the Prophecy to Voldemort put in 
Azkaban. Ironically it was Dumbledore's testimony that seemed to get 
him out--for good practical reasons, imo, but he's still possibly 
the reason this particular DE didn't go to jail.

-m