Christian Forgiveness and Snape (was Would Harry forgiving )

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 164358

> Magpie:
> But I think Harry has perfectly good reason to view it as a betrayal 
> and as his business. It might not have been something Harry focused 
> on in principle, but there's a difference between not knowing the 
> name of someone who committed a crime related to you and not being 
> told that an important person in your life is connected to you in 
> this important way. It's his life, so it is his business.

Pippin:
The matter was taken out of Harry's hands when Snape was charged 
as a Death Eater. Harry already knew that Snape must have been at
least peripherally involved in Voldemort's crimes, but the only thing
that bothered him before was whether Snape had truly repented, not
whether the victims of those crimes had received justice. 

Harry's own comment shows that. "And you let him teach here?" is
not "And you let him walk free?" 

This is all about Harry hating Snape as a teacher, not about justice 
for the Potters.  I'm not surprised Harry doesn't see it that way. 
He's always looking to make his issues with Snape public
rather than personal. But it's really personal all the time. 

For example, he wanted to know how Dumbledore could be sure 
Snape wasn't softening him up for Voldemort, but he never
had any fear that Snape the DADA teacher might do that to the 
whole school, even when he disagreed with Snape about how to
fight dementors.

 
> 
> Magpie:
> Hmm...that seems to be talking about something else than I was 
> talking about to Lupinlore. He asked if I thought Dumbledore was 
> making an opening for Harry to forgive Snape and I just said what I 
> thought Dumbledore was thinking about Harry and Snape.

Pippin:
It goes to what you said above about Snape being an important
person in Harry's life. As far as Dumbledore is concerned, 
he could expect that very shortly, Harry will leave Hogwarts and
Snape's importance to Harry will recede  much as Dudley has,
 *unless* Harry discovers this information, and flips, as you put it. 

>From Dumbledore's point of view, Harry's awareness of this issue
could only be a needless and possibly fatal distraction from what
both Harry and Snape have to do to survive Voldemort.  Of course
*we* know better, and are expecting a traditional dramatic
resolution, but Dumbledore does not.


> Magpie:
> I admit I don't see Harry as all that forgiving. He usually forgives 
> when the other person gives in or recants (it's often rather one-
> sided).

Pippin:
I was thinking about Harry not needing an apology from Ron for
what happened in GoF, and not ever thinking about it again.


> Magpie:
> That's not the way the scene read to me. It may be Dumbledore's job 
> as leader to analyze things, but Harry hadn't called him in for an 
> analysis meeting, Dumbledore's explaining himself because he wants 
> to change the way Harry feels at that moment.

Pippin:
Huh? He says he owes Harry an explanation of an old man's mistakes,
because if he had been open with Harry, Harry would not have gone to
the ministry and Sirius would not have died. It's hardly possible for
Dumbledore to explain his mistakes without explaining what was a
mistake  and what he chose to do deliberately, knowing it wasn't ideal
but the best of the options.
 
Magpie:
 Regardless of what 
> Harry needed to hear or understand, Dumbledore stresses that his own 
> fault was loving Harry too much while everyone else's faults are a 
> bit less about caring for Harry. I have no problem with his analysis 
> of either Sirius or Snape, but I'm analyzing Dumbledore too and what 
> he's saying about himself.

Pippin:
Are you saying it was self-serving for Dumbledore to claim that
he cared about Harry? But Harry had been thinking that Dumbledore
didn't care about him and that was why Dumbledore had been
avoiding contact with him. Was Dumbledore supposed to let that
stand? It seems like your quarrel is with the author, for making
Dumbledore care more about Harry than Sirius or Snape do.


> Alla:
> Not as well fed as I would liked, but not a pampered prince (
> paraphrase). I hear DD excusing himself loud and clear. Thank
> goodness he admitted some of his mistakes, but IMO far from all of
> them.
> 
> Magpie:
> Excusing himself and including an odd comment out of nowhere. Harry 
> the pampered prince seems thrown in for contrast. 

Pippin:
Have you seen "The Queen"? Dumbledore is symbolic of that older
culture, IMO. He wasn't raised to think that children have fragile
psyches and need to be showered with affection or they'll be
traumatized and grow up to be monsters. Rather the reverse -- 
too much attention is what's bad for them. Give them some
fresh air, a spartan diet and plenty of exercise, and they'll be
sound enough. Feelings? They're private. Rather share one's
toothbrush, don'tcha know?

How else could Dumbledore forget, and call it an old man's mistake, 
that some wounds run too deep for the healing? We're always looking
for the psychological roots of evil, but the older culture didn't see
it that way. From Shakespeare to Tolkien, the characters don't
go mad and then choose to do evil. They choose to do evil, *then* 
they go mad.
 
Dumbledore didn't envision that Snape wouldn't be able to put
his feelings about James aside. He also didn't envision that Harry
would be too damaged (as JKR indicated in interviews) to learn
occlumency.

Like any parent of the old school, Dumbledore found it far easier
to  recognize and assess the damage done to a child by too much
attention than the possibility of damage from neglect or cruelty. 
It's not that he's denying that it occurs, it just doesn't have the
same hold on his imagination that it does on ours.

Pippin