Christian Forgiveness and Snape (was Would Harry forgiving )

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 164396

 > Magpie:
> > But I think Harry has perfectly good reason to view it as a 
betrayal 
> > and as his business. It might not have been something Harry 
focused 
> > on in principle, but there's a difference between not knowing 
the 
> > name of someone who committed a crime related to you and not 
being 
> > told that an important person in your life is connected to you 
in 
> > this important way. It's his life, so it is his business.
> 
> Pippin:
> The matter was taken out of Harry's hands when Snape was charged 
> as a Death Eater. Harry already knew that Snape must have been at
> least peripherally involved in Voldemort's crimes, but the only 
thing
> that bothered him before was whether Snape had truly repented, not
> whether the victims of those crimes had received justice. 
> 
> Harry's own comment shows that. "And you let him teach here?" is
> not "And you let him walk free?" 

Magpie:
But my point has nothing to do with whether Harry wanted justice for 
the eavesdropper or just doesn't want Snape teaching. My point is 
that it's not surprising at all that Harry would consider it his 
business that Snape was the person who gave Voldemort the prophecy. 
This is the type of thing that tends to mean something to people.

Pippin: 
> This is all about Harry hating Snape as a teacher, not about 
justice 
> for the Potters.  I'm not surprised Harry doesn't see it that way. 
> He's always looking to make his issues with Snape public
> rather than personal. But it's really personal all the time. 

Magpie:
Regardless of why Harry is looking for another reason to hate Snape, 
this is a personal connection between him and Snape. Given that 
Dumbledore can explain how Voldemort's killing Harry's parents would 
guarantee Harry wanting to seek revenge, I think he gets that this 
kind of thing matters.

Pippin: 
> For example, he wanted to know how Dumbledore could be sure 
> Snape wasn't softening him up for Voldemort, but he never
> had any fear that Snape the DADA teacher might do that to the 
> whole school, even when he disagreed with Snape about how to
> fight dementors.

Magpie:
Yes, that's what I was arguing earlier, that Harry's thoughts about 
Snape being a DE aren't really a coherent belief for him to be right 
or wrong about. He goes for long stretches without ever thinking 
that Snape is a DE, and even when he does think Snape is a DE it's 
not an urgent fear the way I think it would be if it were really 
about that. It's not like when Harry thinks Snape might be softening 
him up for Voldemort he's also panicked at all the secrets Snape 
knows about the Order or is worried about what he might do to 
Sirius. He picks and chooses his distrust of Snape around his own 
issues. But still, especially given that Dumbledore sees this going 
on, he would have to know that Snape's being the eavesdropper would 
mean something to Harry.

 
> > 
> > Magpie:
> > Hmm...that seems to be talking about something else than I was 
> > talking about to Lupinlore. He asked if I thought Dumbledore was 
> > making an opening for Harry to forgive Snape and I just said 
what I 
> > thought Dumbledore was thinking about Harry and Snape.
> 
> Pippin:
> It goes to what you said above about Snape being an important
> person in Harry's life. As far as Dumbledore is concerned, 
> he could expect that very shortly, Harry will leave Hogwarts and
> Snape's importance to Harry will recede  much as Dudley has,
>  *unless* Harry discovers this information, and flips, as you put 
it. 
> 
> From Dumbledore's point of view, Harry's awareness of this issue
> could only be a needless and possibly fatal distraction from what
> both Harry and Snape have to do to survive Voldemort.  Of course
> *we* know better, and are expecting a traditional dramatic
> resolution, but Dumbledore does not.

Magpie:
That's just what I was saying to Lupinlore, that Dumbledore is just 
hoping to avoid this issue entirely. He knows it will just make 
things more difficult when it comes out and hopes that if it ever 
had to come out it would be far in the future. So he's not working 
towards having Harry forgive Snape for getting him targetted. He'd 
rather that didn't have to be dealt with at all as part of all this 
(or ever).

> > Magpie:
> > I admit I don't see Harry as all that forgiving. He usually 
forgives 
> > when the other person gives in or recants (it's often rather one-
> > sided).
> 
> Pippin:
> I was thinking about Harry not needing an apology from Ron for
> what happened in GoF, and not ever thinking about it again.

Magpie:
True, he doesn't go back over things once they're dealt with then, 
yes. Once Ron shows that he knows he was wrong Harry isn't going to 
bring up his wrongness again.
 
> > Magpie:
> > That's not the way the scene read to me. It may be Dumbledore's 
job 
> > as leader to analyze things, but Harry hadn't called him in for 
an 
> > analysis meeting, Dumbledore's explaining himself because he 
wants 
> > to change the way Harry feels at that moment.
> 
> Pippin:
> Huh? He says he owes Harry an explanation of an old man's mistakes,
> because if he had been open with Harry, Harry would not have gone 
to
> the ministry and Sirius would not have died. It's hardly possible 
for
> Dumbledore to explain his mistakes without explaining what was a
> mistake  and what he chose to do deliberately, knowing it wasn't 
ideal
> but the best of the options.

Magpie:
Dumbledore has chosen to come clean with Harry on his terms. This is 
how what he says comes across to me.
  
> Magpie:
>  Regardless of what 
> > Harry needed to hear or understand, Dumbledore stresses that his 
own 
> > fault was loving Harry too much while everyone else's faults are 
a 
> > bit less about caring for Harry. I have no problem with his 
analysis 
> > of either Sirius or Snape, but I'm analyzing Dumbledore too and 
what 
> > he's saying about himself.
> 
> Pippin:
> Are you saying it was self-serving for Dumbledore to claim that
> he cared about Harry? But Harry had been thinking that Dumbledore
> didn't care about him and that was why Dumbledore had been
> avoiding contact with him. Was Dumbledore supposed to let that
> stand? It seems like your quarrel is with the author, for making
> Dumbledore care more about Harry than Sirius or Snape do.

Magpie:
At times, yes. It is self-serving--effectively so. Simply telling 
Harry that he cares about him and was ignoring him this year out of 
a misguided idea that that was best is not the thing that makes him 
sound self-serving to me. I couldn't quarrel with the author for 
making DD care about Harry more than Sirius or Snape do, because I 
don't think he does care more about him than Sirius does. Or perhaps 
even more than Snape does, in his reluctant, angry way, even if 
Snape's "caring" is mostly hating. If this scene was supposed to 
make me feel impressed by Dumbledore's caring about Harry, it failed 
(for me and for many other people).   
 
> > Alla:
> > Not as well fed as I would liked, but not a pampered prince (
> > paraphrase). I hear DD excusing himself loud and clear. Thank
> > goodness he admitted some of his mistakes, but IMO far from all 
of
> > them.
> > 
> > Magpie:
> > Excusing himself and including an odd comment out of nowhere. 
Harry 
> > the pampered prince seems thrown in for contrast. 
> 
> Pippin:
> Have you seen "The Queen"? Dumbledore is symbolic of that older
> culture, IMO. He wasn't raised to think that children have fragile
> psyches and need to be showered with affection or they'll be
> traumatized and grow up to be monsters. Rather the reverse -- 
> too much attention is what's bad for them. Give them some
> fresh air, a spartan diet and plenty of exercise, and they'll be
> sound enough. Feelings? They're private. Rather share one's
> toothbrush, don'tcha know?

Magpie:
I haven't seen The Queen, unfortunately, but I said nothing about 
children needing to be showered with affection or having fragile 
psyches. The idea isn't much more relevent than 
Dumbledore's "pampered prince" line, as if any issue with the 
Dursleys counts as a point against this phantom pampered prince. 
As for feelings...Dumbledore seems to think they're rather important 
when House Elves are involved. To the point where he feels it's 
important to explain Sirius' responsibility for Kreacher's behavior. 
(Which unfortunately I don't much buy either--not because I think 
Sirius is above reproach or didn't contribute at all to his own 
fate, but because I don't think it's accurate to suggest that 
Kreacher was motivated by resentment of his treatment of Sirius.)  
He claims to care about these kinds of feelings once Harry gets to 
Hogwarts--he even feels the need to clear up the whole Prefect issue 
and cries. He's feeling all over the scene and encouraging Harry to 
feel too.

Pippin: 
> How else could Dumbledore forget, and call it an old man's 
mistake, 
> that some wounds run too deep for the healing? We're always looking
> for the psychological roots of evil, but the older culture didn't 
see
> it that way. From Shakespeare to Tolkien, the characters don't
> go mad and then choose to do evil. They choose to do evil, *then* 
> they go mad.

Magpie:
I've got no problem with Dumbledore's "old man's forgetting some 
wounds run too deep" explanation of Snape. As I said earlier, I 
don't mind his analysis of either Snape or Sirius (though I disagree 
with his analysis of Kreacher). But when I step back from the whole 
speech I see a very slick presentation of himself along with it. 
That it claims to be a heartfelt, brave confession of mistakes is 
part of what makes it slick.

Pippin: 
> Like any parent of the old school, Dumbledore found it far easier
> to  recognize and assess the damage done to a child by too much
> attention than the possibility of damage from neglect or cruelty. 
> It's not that he's denying that it occurs, it just doesn't have the
> same hold on his imagination that it does on ours.

Magpie:
And for some reason felt the need to remind us of the dangers of too 
much attention here, even though nobody in the room that we can see 
is suffering from it (and in fact it seems like everyone he's 
talking about in the scene suffered from the opposite).

-m