Question about the prophecy and a thought about Ginny

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 171095

Magpie:
> Actually, I've never heard anyone use McGonagall's statement as 
> proof there's more to DD's trust in Snape since, as you say, she 
> never suggests she knows what the reason was. They use Dumbledore's 
> own statements that he "trusts Snape completely" and point out that 
> he has never shared *why* he trusts him completely. At one point he 
> looks like he's going to, but he doesn't. It's an open question. 
> Whether his reason is "ironclad" or not there's no way to know, 
> because we don't know what the reason is.
<snip>


Dana:
Then I suggest you search the list on the word ironclad and see what 
comes up but just too save you the trouble, here are just a handful 
of those the search came up with. 
(Just picked the first few the search came up)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/170019

Carol:
But we still don't know DD's "ironclad reason" for trusting Snape
because he didn't reveal it. All he said was that he trusted Severus
snape completely. We can't judge whether that reason is "airtight"
until we read it.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/169849


Carol responds:
Well, yes. But what DD was still concealing as of the end of HBP is
his "ironclad" reason for trusting Snape, which is not what Harry
presents it to be in the hospital wing and which is not the same as
Snape's reason for returning to our side.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/169772

Jen:
Dumbledore trusted him even after the Potters died, after Sirius
died, up to and through the night he himself died, but it doesn't
mean Dumbledore's ironclad reason will be the whole of Harry's trust
as well.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/169618

Kvapost now:
Oooh, delicioso! Snape having his own Horcrux(-es?)! I'm just thinking
of that ironclad reason for DD to trust Snape.

Laurel:
I think the "iron clad reason" is another Unbreakable Vow, that Snape 
made
with Dumbledore when Snape turned to the Good Side.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/168302

Carol:
McGonagall, who trusts Snape only because
DD does once she finds out that he's been a Death Eater? Clearly not.
She states that she doesn't know the "ironclad reason" for DD's trust
in Snape. Hagrid, whom DD would trust with his life but would be
foolish indeed to trust with a secret not protected by a Fidelius 
charm?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/167072

Bart:
A major mystery through the books was: Why did Dumbledore trust Snape 
so much? Dumbledore let it be known that he had an ironclad reason to 
do so, but, other than hints, he never actually stated his reason.


Magpie:
> FWIW, I wouldn't trust house distinctions too much here. Slytherins 
> don't necessarily always choose to save their own necks--Regulus, 
> for instance, appears to have gone to his own death the way Harry 
> would. Draco did not choose to save his own neck on the Tower by 
> killing Dumbledore. More importantly, if you want the character who 
> most exemplifies choosing to save his own neck, that would be Peter 
> Pettigrew, a Gryffindor. (Peter, of course, would have killed 
> Dumbledore on the Tower.)
<snip>

Dana: 

Actually I wasn't but I should have made it clear and so you are 
definitely right. I actually meant that DD would not understand the 
quality of courage and the difference when it comes to James and 
Snape and that he made a mistake in thinking that they indeed where 
the same. But I do not deny I chose my words wrongly in trying to 
make my point. My point was actually that Gryffindor's would put 
themselves in the line of fire directly when doing the right thing, 
while Slytherin's take the risk indirectly and would minimize it as 
much as they can. 

Regulus if he indeed was R.A.B did not face LV directly when he found 
out LV's secret and left it to chance it would be discovered, his 
imminent death had nothing to do with the possibility that LV would 
discover that he swapped the real locked for a fake one, as the note 
specifically states that he expects to be dead before LV reads that 
note. 

Draco tried to have DD killed by letting someone else bring him 
deathly objects and bringing DEs into the castle was not Draco's 
choice but he was ordered to get them in. So Draco's direct 
confrontation with DD was not a way Draco himself wanted to deal with 
it and he actually couldn't do it in this way while he had no problem 
sending the objects to DD. If DD had died from them then it would 
have been enough for Draco, he never wanted to have a face to face 
with DD. And to me his use of Madam Rosemerta clearly indicates to me 
that Draco thought about himself first as he did not want to be 
implicated in these attempts.  

Peter faced Sirius head on to get himself out of trouble with the DEs 
after LV's downfall, that is not a lovely thing to boost about but he 
nevertheless did. 

Snape hid his remorse behind LV's orders and never closed the door to 
support his defection. DD makes use of this in GoF but it changes 
nothing that Snape did not put himself in the line of fire to help 
out someone else and the only time we see Snape do it, is in an evil 
packed to have DD killed and as I stated in my pervious post I truly 
believe that Snape would have tried to get away with it and blame the 
other DEs for DD's death. 

James on the other hand put himself between Snape and the werewolf to 
prevent Snape getting hurt. Sirius puts himself (although it failed 
due to Peter's betrayal) in the line of fire to keep his friend safe 
and in PoA he again puts himself in the line of fire to take out 
Peter without any thought about the consequences to himself and OotP 
he does so again when Harry is in trouble while he could have gotten 
caught in the process. Harry puts himself in the line of fire over 
and over again to help out others. The courage they have is different 
of that of a Slytherin and they do not think about the consequences 
it might have for themselves, when they do something for someone 
else. Peter might be the exeption to the rule because he only does so 
to help himself but even Neville puts himself in the line of fire and 
so does DD himself on more then one occassion where he takes the heat 
to protect Harry. 

I believe that DD believed Snape did the same thing that Snape chose 
to do the right thing regardless of the consequences to himself but 
as we see in Spinner's End that was never so. Snape covered his own 
ass first before he acted on his so-called remorse and he kept enough 
of his options open so he would never be implicated in betraying 
LV.   
 
Magpie:
> Although Peter does not act to save Harry in GoF (despite being 
> indebted to him), and Snape does not owe a life debt to Harry. 
> Snape's living on perfectly well having not saved James. Dumbledore 
> starts to say he believes his remorse over finding out who the 
> Prophecy targeted (and while yes, we shouldn't turn our ethics on 
> and off depending on if we know the people, most all our characters 
> do it all the time) was what caused him to return...(to something, 
> someplace or some state of mind), but Dumbledore knows about the 
> Life Debt too. He explicitly hints about its power to Harry re: 
> Peter. So I don't think we can assume that Dumbledore would be 
> tricked into thinking Life Debt-itis was true remorse. His take on 
> Snape's feelings towards James are more complex, even knowing their 
> history and how life debts work.
<snip>

Dana:
Yes, Peter does, he tried to persuade LV to change his mind, even 
Snape, in Spinner's End, says he is not stupid enough to try. I do 
not think the life-debt is something like an UV that would kill you 
if you do not honor it but that it pushes you to act when the person 
you owe it to comes in direct danger. We see that Snape does not feel 
any responsibility for the Potters ending up death because James 
chose to put his truth in the wrong man (which he actually did but 
that as a side note). We see as canon stands now that Snape did 
nothing more then alert DD that LV was planning to attack the 
Potters. If Peter had not betrayed the Potters then it would have 
been sufficient enough to keep the Potters safe and with it Snape 
would have released himself from the debt. Snape himself was at 
Hogwarts the night LV went to GH so he did not know that the Potters 
were in danger of dying that night so he was not bound to act. 

Another option and I think that is more likely is that you can't be 
the cause for someone's dead when you owe that person a debt. Snape 
would have been the cause for LV hunting the Potters and this would 
make him directly responsible for James's death but after he gave DD 
information and as a result they put the Fidelius Charm in place he 
would no longer be the cause for their deaths if LV would be able to 
get to them, Snape released himself of that responsibility eventhough 
the debt itself was never settled. Peter by helping LV get himself a 
body would be directly responsible for Harry's death if as a result 
of his help LV killed Harry. Peter tries to convince to use another 
wizard but LV had already made up his mind. Peter was still 
responsible but Harry never died and so neither did Peter. 

Of course a third option is that it is a combination of both. 

DD knows about the debt and if it is as I suggest in the later option 
or a combination of the above then he at that time would not consider 
Snape's actions to be debt related because at that time LV was not 
hunting the Potters themselves yet. I believe that LV had not made 
his choice between the Potters and the Longbottoms when Snape went to 
DD and that Snape only knew at the time that it could involve the 
Potters when LV would make his final choice. Remember that the 
Fidelius was put in place only one week before the Potters died and 
that it was a direct result of a warning from one of DD's useful 
spies. Therefore DD did not know Snape actions where Snape trying to 
release himself from the debt before he had to do something that 
would put himself into direct danger and Snape settled himself at 
Hogwarts no longer able to know what LV was up to. No Snape trying to 
keep Sirius safe as he was supposed to be the SK and if LV wanted to 
get to the Potters then he needed to go through the SK to get there. 
No checking up on the progress of LV's actions because as long as 
Snape did not know anything about it then he was not responsible for 
it. But Snape was somehow able to act just one week before while he 
was at that time also already at Hogwarts. 

I totally agree that DD believed that Snape's feelings towards James 
were more complex and that he believed Snape truly had overcome these 
feelings because he suddenly realized that he what he had done. That 
he believed that Snape would always do the right thing because he was 
man enough to face is mistakes eventhough he hated the man it 
involved. DD misjudged Snape being far more calculated and 
sophisticated in shoving off responsibilities for his actions and 
that Snape would have never risked his own life to save James and he 
actually never did. 

JMHO

Dana