Question about the prophecy and a thought about Ginny

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 171189

Dana:
Also isn't it strange that Snape is assumed to have alerted 
> the Order to thwart Lucius from succeeding but just a few weeks 
later 
> he takes a vow to protect his only son? And he tells the wife of 
the 
> person he helped put in Azkaban in short that he helped putting 
him 
> there and therefore was the real cause for LV's anger when he 
makes 
> his claim about helping dispose of Black? 

Magpie:
I don't understand--why should it be strange that Snape did that? 
Dumbledore was happy to put Lucius in jail but protected Draco the 
following year. Snape doesn't tell Narcissa that he helped put 
Lucius in jail. He doesn't tell her he sent the Order to the MoM. He 
claims information he gave to the Order contributed to Black's 
death, which is vague.

Dana:
> Also althroughout HBP DD was counting on Snape to take care of 
things 
> concerning Draco as he tells Draco that he had given Snape the 
order 
> to watch him but Snape failed to follow this order because there 
was 
> that pesky vow that prevented Snape from taking real actions 
against 
> Draco. DD indeed trusted Snape and why he gave him specific 
> assignments and Snape failed him three times. 

Magpie:
No, Dumbledore himself knew what Draco was doing and also failed to 
take real actions against him because his plan was to *not* take 
actions against him. We see Snape trying to find out what Draco is 
planning ahead of time (which doesn't set off the Vow) but Draco 
isn't talking. There's no indication that Snape is not following and 
order of Dumbledore's order to stop Draco--he hardly needed Snape to 
do that for him anyway. He himself could have taken action against 
him. Heck, Harry tells Dumbledore information to help him head Draco 
off and Dumbledore tells him to lay off.

Dana:
> The only reason that there seems to be more to the story is DD's 
> determination when he declares his trust in Snape. It is just, to 
me, 
> the unwillingness to believe that it was only Snape's story of 
> remorse that made DD trust Snape had returned to the right side. 
But 
> DD specifically states in HBP that he believed that Snape's 
remorse 
> WAS the reason for his return. Wanting to believe that there is 
more 
> to it is in my opinion wanting there to be a bigger reason for 
> Snape's return and his remorse and therefore more to DD's trust in 
> Snape. 

Magpie:
I don't think that's the logic. One *can* believe that DD believes 
that Snape's remorse was the sole reason for his return. The reason 
for DD's trust in him is presented as a separate question, one that 
Dumbledore doesn't answer. Dumbledore has no issues about talking 
about his feelings on Snape's remorse, but does not give that for 
the reason he thinks he can trust Snape.

Dana:
> DD only tells Harry about the information that Snape found out 
> through Harry. Wouldn't it have been a great way for DD to proof 
> Snape was on their side by stating Snape was working tirelessly to 
> help the Order? 

Magpie:
Harry already knows that Snape is a spy, and that this implies 
danger--obviously he also knows Snape is a double agent so could be 
risking himself on the other side instead. 

> Dana: 
> If Draco was showing compassion in that moment then why did he not 
> react at all when Snape kills DD? Why did he not try to stop Snape 
> killing DD but let himself be shoved out of the way. Why did he 
not 
> start yelling that it would be wrong to kill? Because Draco was 
> scared that the DEs would kill him on sight. Draco did not care if 
DD 
> died he just could not do it himself. 

Magpie:
Rather than analyzing and appreciating the text that's there, you 
seem to be making a demand about what scene you need to see and 
assume that any deviation proves your point. Both with Draco and 
Snape unless the two of them declare for Dumbledore in front of DEs 
and die for it they can't possibly be anything but bad guys. One 
obvious reason Draco doesn't do those things is that JKR is a 
competent writer.

Of course Draco was scared the DEs would kill him. He's scared of 
just about everything in that scene. Nor can he kill DD himself. 
He's in the process of having everything he's ever believed begin to 
shift. He hasn't turned into Harry in the split second Snape 
arrives, or a Quaker ready to start lecturing Death Eaters about how 
it's wrong to kill--he's just beginning to even understand that 
himself based on his own instincts. That doesn't mean he must be 
just unable to say a spell at that moment for some reason. Snape 
walks in and acts almost immediately--there's not even anything in 
the scene to signal anyone to what Snape's going to do exactly. 
Everyone in the scene is frozen (except Snape and Dumbledore), 
including Harry.

Dana:
Sure that is a good thing that 
> you can't take another humans life for your own personal gain but 
it 
> doesn't proof Draco did not kill DD out of the goodness of his 
heart. 
> Proofs indeed Draco's heart is not truly ever so evil. But where 
is 
> Draco compassion in feeling sorry he almost killed two students?

Magpie:
I would say his feeling sorry he almost killed two students would be 
contributing to why Draco arrives on the Tower already unable to 
kill and not needing to discover it up there, only admit it. The 
whole year is an education to Draco, and everything that happens is 
part of getting him to the point where he can begin to understand 
what Dumbledore wants to tell him in that last scene. Any compassion 
or remorse he felt would of course be firmly hidden under his 
unconvincing protests that he is a killer based on the things he's 
done--that's another thing he's got to fear given his perspective, 
after all, is his compassion. Must be repressed. (If he had no 
remorse, I don't think his claims would have been so unconvincing. 
And this even after both kids are all right--most people in canon 
lack remorse when everyone turns out to be all right. I believe you 
yourself pointed that out regarding Sirius and the Prank.) If he's 
already almost killed without remorse I'd think it would be that 
much easier.

Dana: 
> Draco failed his mission because he did not have the nerve to kill 
> another human being not because he did no longer want DD death. 
That 
> is a good thing don't get me wrong but it was not because Draco 
> realized what he was doing was wrong. 

Magpie:
Not having 'the nerve' slides over the whole question of why people 
don't kill other human beings. Killing DD is supposed to be a 
glorious act for Draco, and at the beginning of the year, before he 
knows what death means, Draco does have the nerve. He has no reason 
to ever want DD dead personally, it's just a task he's been given. 
Throughout the beginning of Tower scene he thinks he should be able 
to kill him to save himself, but he can't. When Dumbledore offers 
him protection he starts to lower his wand, a considered decision. 
He spends the rest of the scene with his eyes locked on Dumbledore, 
and his last line in canon is to say something that would make him 
look better in Dumbledore's eyes...he doesn't seem like he wants 
Dumbledore to die to me.

Seems to me JKR would be perfectly capable of putting across the 
scenario you're describing if she wanted to, but instead she 
arranged things differently. She has Draco start to lower his wand 
*from a position of strength* after going over all the reasons he 
doesn't have to lower his wand (he got farther than anyone thought, 
he didn't fail, he's the one with the power) to show that he's not 
just backing down because he's been defeated. She surrounds him with 
people threatening him if he doesn't kill Dumbledore, and yet he 
doesn't even try to say the words. Which doesn't make him a hero, 
no, but I think is clearly showing us that he's not just a guy who 
wants to kill, really, but lacks some sort of vague "nerve." His 
fear of the DEs killing him is used against him when he doesn't 
start speechifying about the sanctity of life, but for some reason 
isn't counted for him when he doesn't kill even though that's what 
the DEs are there to make him do. They're there to give him any 
nerve he lacks with physical threats, so if all he were lacking was 
nerve, he'd be pointing his wand.  

I think at the end of HBP Draco's a wild card, and that's what makes 
it interesting. He's not what he's always been, but we can't know 
what he'll be yet. When people talk about him actually switching 
sides I think they usually do it in the future tense, acknowledging 
that this hasn't happened yet. But just as I don't think we can 
count him as having completely transformed at the end of HBP, I 
don't think we can just write him off as not having changed or done 
anything of note. Even Harry's own thoughts start to point things in 
a way that suggests the unknown.

-m