Puppetmaster DD (Was: Question about the prophecy and a thought about Ginny)

[lizzyben04]

No: HPFGUIDX 171278

 
> Carol responds:
> I agree with you that the two versions are contradictory and I'm also
> not satisfied with reconstructions that attempt to reconcile them. But
> I'm not so sure that Trelawney's view is the accurate one. 
<snip>

lizzyben:

Well, IMO we can probably trust T's version of events more than DD's
for two reasons. First, we already know that DD intentionally
concealed parts of the prophecy events from Harry, while there's no
indication T did. When Harry confronts DD about one conflict (Snape),
DD essentially confirms T's version of events - he's admitting that
her version is more truthful than what he first presented. Second, T
has less incentive to lie. The prophecy is obviously very important to
DD, and he has already been highly inconsistent in his speech about
how the prophecy was given, and what the prophecy means. He's being
incredibly evasive to Harry - which would make sense if he was trying
to conceal his own role in leaking the prophecy. As for T's opinion
about why Snape was spying, to me that reeked of a cover story that
was offered to T after the fact to explain Snape's presence. Most
likely by DD himself. 

Carol:

> I, too, am disturbed by DD's unDumbledorean behavior in HBP,
praising his own
> brilliance and seeming to encourage Harry's desire for vengeance
> against Voldemort when at other times he implies that Harry's weapons
> are a pure soul and the superpowerful magic of Love. (I have no
> problems with DD's trust in Snape, but I wish he'd done more than
> credit him with "timely action" in treating the ring curse. We never
> get to hear that exciting story.) I can only account for his behavior
> as being prompted by the knowledge that he has only a short time to
> live and being in a hurry to educate Harry on Horcruxes and
> Riddle/Voldemort without undermining his plans for Snape, who will
> surely be "outed" as a DE by the DADA curse.


lizzyben:

I think he's just largely decided to drop the act. The kindly
grandfather, twinkle & lemon drops, act worked to disarm people most
of the time. But as you say, he's running out of time & now needs to
get down to business w/Harry. Mike mentioned that DD's eyes don't
*twinkle* anymore in HBP, and it's true. Instead, DD's eyes *gleam*
& *glitter* - when Harry describes killing all the Death Eaters he
can, DD's eyes are *gleaming*. Creepy. IMO, these descriptions are
meant to be echoes of DD's "gleam of triumph" way back in GOF. That
moment was a brief glimpse of the real DD. IMO, DD's speech at the end
of OOTP was another - he's so exhausted & guilt-ridden that he lets
out some of his real motivations to Harry. And in this speech, DD
reveals that he is all. about. The Plan - he calls it "my brilliant
plan", "my wonderful plan"; a plan that involves both Harry & the
prophecy; a plan that requires him to endanger & possibly sacrifice
Harry's life. In these moments, his usual kindly eccentric
facade slips, & we can catch a glimpse of who DD actually is. And IMO,
the real DD is in fact a brilliant, cold, calculating, ruthless wizard. 

DD says he's impressed by Harry's ability to love, but I'm mostly
impressed by Harry's ability to hate. In OOTP & HBP, Harry is often
consumed w/hatred & rage, and this is only worsened by losing his two
father figures. If you look at DD's first speech to Harry in HBP, he
begins by bringing up how *unfair* & *tragic* Sirius' death is -
rubbing salt in the wound? He never goes into detail about how Snape
helped him, perhaps because he doesn't want to give Harry any reason
to lessen his rather unhealthy hatred of Snape. In his Horcrux speech,
he again brings up Harry's lost loved ones in order to encourage Harry
to kill LV, and fan the flames of hatred in Harry. Immediately after
this little hate/revenge pep talk, Harry unleashes a powerful Dark
curse on Draco & almost kills him. Coincidence? I think not. Harry's
hatred has increased his power & ability to use dark magic. You have
to wonder - DD talks about Harry's love, but which emotion is he
really encouraging in Harry? How could the "epitome of
goodness" ever, ever encourage Harry to kill someone when this act
"splits the soul?" Just *what* is DD up to here? 

After OOTP, I half-jokingly wondered if DD was trying to turn Harry
into a Dark Wizard w/his schemes. But it's not a joke anymore. I'm not
scared about what might happen to Harry in DH; I'm scared about what
Harry might *do* in DH. Because it seems to me that DD has done
everything possible to fan Harry's worst emotions, capped off by
forcing Harry to watch his death. Beyond cruel. It's almost like he
wants to make Harry turn evil. IMO Harry will do some awful things in
DH - including using Crucio on Snape. We ain't seen nothing yet. And
if Harry truly finds out how much DD has manipulated him from the
beginning, he will go ballistic. Infuriatingly, this is also probably
part of DD's Plan. 

Carol:
> <snip>  While we will certainly learn more about these events
> (for example, how DD knew to send Hagrid to Godric's Hollow to rescue
> Harry and how anyone knew that Voldemort was vanquished but not dead),
> I doubt that we'll find that the wise old mentor, for all his
> emotional mistakes, engineered those events. At least I hope not. I'll
> send my books to Lupinlore to be mulched if it turns out to be true. :-)

lizzyben:

Get the mulcher ready! The funny thing about DD is that, once you
accept Puppetmaster DD, so much about his character & the novels just
falls into place. It's like taking the red pill & seeing through the
matrix. The many "emotional mistakes" DD makes aren't mistakes at all,
and DD does in fact engineer events to his liking. And once you accept
that he's engineered one event, it becomes so much easier to see the
pattern & spot the typical DD modus operandi in the unfolding of
subsequent schemes. DD's MO, simply, is to use bait & traps. Over &
over again. We can see this MO in many small ways - like when DD used
Harry as "bait" to "trap" Slughorn into teaching again. And in we can
see it in his big plans as well. 

For example, in SS, DD created the obstacle course as a trap for LV.
He knew LV would want the Stone in order to become immortal, so the
the Stone itself became bait. And what good is LV-bait w/o LV? IMO,
it's quite a coincidence that DD's professor gave LV a ride back to
Hogwarts shortly before Harry's enrollment. So, DD lures LV to get the
Stone. At the same time, he also teaches Harry how to get through the
obstacles by showing him the cloak, the Mirror, etc. Then he
disappears, trap set. Quirrel/LV uses the opportunity to enter the
obstacle course, & Harry & co. follow. When LV tries to get the Stone,
he is confronted by Harry, & flees once he realizes that he can't hurt
or touch Harry. Trap sprung. Conveniently, DD shows up just in time to
save Harry, but after the Harry/LV confrontation.

OOTP, same plan. Bait LV w/the prophecy orb to lure him to the MOM
trap, don't warn Harry about false visions so that he follows, allow
confrontation, & DD shows up in the nick of time. LV flees once he
realizes he can't possess Harry. Trap sprung. ETC. 

OK. Given this pattern, when I look at the events of Godric's Hollow,
I see the same MO - bait & trap. Knowing LV's total fear of death, DD
leaks the first half of a prophecy foretelling his death & defeat via
SS. He knows LV will be obsessed w/preventing the prophecy from coming
true. Bait set. Then, he lets LV know where the Potters are via PP.
The fact that DD has done so much to protect them makes LV even more
sure that this family is the "Chosen One." When he learns their secret
location, he feels confident enough to act quickly. DD has
successfully lured LV to Godric's Hollow & LV decides to personally
attack them there. But Lily has used ancient magic to
protect the child, and causes the AK to rebound on LV. Trap sprung. LV
defeated, flees. Chosen One created, prophecy fulfilled. Godric's
Hollow has DD's fingerprints all over it - the way events unfolded
show all the hallmarks of a classic DD bait & trap scheme. 

Carol:
> Regarding the change in pronouns and your explanation: It makes no
> sense to me that DD would switch from "my" to "our" out of a sudden
> realization that the death of the Potters and his own selection as the
> Chosen One was *Harry's* good fortune as well as Dumbledore's. Surely
> not. Nor was it the Potters' good fortune. "Our" must refer, IMO,
> either to DD and the Order or to the WW as a whole, not to Harry and
> DD. The quote again (taken from one of your posts upthread, with your
> ellipses) is "My - our - one stroke of good fortune was that the
> eavesdropper was detected only a short way into the prophecy and
> thrown from the building... Consequently, he could not warn his master
> that to attack you would be to risk transferring power to you.
> So Voldemort never knew that there might be danger in attacking you."
> 
> So the good fortune is not that Harry's parents were attacked but that
> the eavesdropper heard and related only part of the Prophecy, so that
> neither he nor Voldemort knew that to attack Harry was to create his
> own Nemesis. Had he heard the whole Prophecy, the Potters might not
> have died (but as members of the Order, they would still have been on
> his hit list and Harry might still have been orphaned or lost at least
> one parent), but the WW would have had no respite and no Chosen One
> who could ultimately vanquish Voldemort.

lizzyben:

I don't disagree w/anything you've said, but don't really see the
distinction. You agree that the "good fortune" was that LV didn't know
the danger of attacking the prophecy, & that the Potters' deaths
ensured the salvation of the WW. No argument there. But, then, isn't
the attack on Harry's parents a vital part of that good fortune? 

Carol:
> But I very much doubt that Dumbledore knew at the time what would
> happen if Voldemort heard all or part of the Prophecy. He had no more
> idea than Snape did who would be involved or how Voldemort would
> interpret the Prophecy (or even that Snape was a DE who would report
> it to LV). I very much doubt that he expected Voldemort to attack a
> baby; he seems to have taken action only when Snape reported to him
> "how Voldemort interpreted the Prophecy." 

lizzyben:

I think DD knew exactly how LV would react. He's practically an expert
in LV, and often repeats that LV's consuming fear of death is his
biggest weakness. So, if DD hears a prophecy about LV's death, he
knows that LV will become obsessed w/preventing that prophecy, even if
it involves killing a baby. The ONLY restraint on LV's action would be
if he heard the 2nd half the prophecy - and DD ensured he did not.
After LV's first defeat, DD also knows that LV will obsessively try to
obtain the 2nd half of the prophecy. It is *perfect* LV-bait. So
perfect that I wonder if DD actually wrote the thing. And DD
successfully used it to bait LV for 17 years. Of course he knew.
That's why he allowed Snape to report half, and only half, of the
prophecy. 

Carol:
And his hands were tied by
> what Snape calls James Potter's "arrogance" in trusting Sirius Black
> over Dumbledore. Had DD been able to protect the Potters (and the
> Longbottoms?), Harry would (possibly) have grown up with his parents
> as an ordinary wizard boy with a talent for Quidditch but no
> extraordinary powers or destiny, but the WW would be a much worse
> place to live, especially for Muggleborns and House-Elves and the
> dwindling number of Order members, with no hope for the defeat of the
> apparently immortal LV.
> Fortunately for DD and the WW at large (though not for the Potters or
> Harry or Voldie or the DEs), matters were taken out of Dumbledore's 
> (and DDM!Snape's) hands by the choices of other people--the Potters, 
> Sirius Black, Peter Pettigrew, and Voldemort all contributed in one
> way or another to the "Good Bad Thing" that occurred at Godric's Hollow.

lizzyben:

The events at Godric's Hollow were a "good bad thing" for the
Wizarding World at large. We don't see it that way, because we're tied
to Harry's perspective. But the WW at large certainly did - they
didn't even stop to mourn the Potters before they began celebrating.
To them, it was a "good thing" because it probably saved the lives of
hundreds, and ensured the WW didn't have to live in fear & terror
anymore. Would DD be willing to sacrifice a few people in order to
assure that this "good thing" for the WW occurred? I think he would.

In DD's OOTP speech, he reveals a great deal about his philosophy &
values. Here, he laments the fact that he now cares more about Harry's
life more than the numbers of "nameless, faceless" people that may die
in the future if The Plan fails. He says that the only flaw in his
"brilliant plan" was that he now loves Harry & cares about Harry's
personal happiness & safety. This implies that the Plan requires him
to sacrifice Harry's happiness &/or life for the "greater good", and
caring too much about Harry would endanger that plan. All this shows
that DD believes that he should care more about protecting the numbers
of "nameless, faceless" people rather than protecting one person in
particular. And it shows that he was able to do this in the past; &
expected to be able to do it w/Harry as well. 

DD believes that his Plan creates the "greater good" & caring too much
about the good of Harry in particular would endanger that plan. He
values the greater good of the WW in general over the good for one
person in particular. This is DD's value system - a strict Utilitarian
value system. Utilitarianism says that we should choose the
course that creates the "greatest good for the greatest number."  And
when DD calculates the "greatest number", he also includes future
generations that may be affected by his choice.

OK. Given that DD has these values, how would he act if he heard a
prophecy foretelling LV's downfall? If he knew that leaking the first
half would force LV to act upon the prophecy, ensuring his defeat, I
don't think he would hesitate a second to do this. It would possibly
endanger one person, but save the lives of thousands. Under a
Utilitarian mindset, the correct course is to allow LV to hear & act
upon the prophecy. Now let's say that SS reports who the actual
targets are - the Potters & their child. DD helps to hide the Potters.
Now, he has a choice to make. If he protects the Potters, they & their
child are safe, but LV continues wreaking havoc. Harry grows up in a
normal family, but, as you say, the WW is pretty bleak for them,
anyway. LV is immortal, & the Potters may die anyway as Order members.
On the other hand, if he lets LV know where the Potters are, &
inspires him to act upon the prophecy, this will kill LV & also create
a Chosen One w/special powers to permanently defeat LV in the future.
The Potters die, but this saves the lives of thousands of wizards,
saves the entire wizarding world, and may even help save future
generations by ensuring that a "chosen one" can stop another LV reign
of terror. 

Which choice guarantees the "greatest good for the greatest number?"
>From a strictly Utilitarian stand-point, DD would believe allowing LV
to attack the Potters was the *correct* choice, even the moral choice.
It would be *immoral* to protect three people he knows at the expense
of the lives of thousands of "nameless, faceless" people. So, yes, I
can see DD doing this, and I can see him doing so w/little to no regret. 

It's interesting that, when Harry confronts DD about the prophecy in
HBP, DD never apologizes for his actions. He says that SNAPE felt
profound remorse about bringing LV the prophecy. But DD never says
that he regrets allowing Snape to report the prophecy to LV, even if
DD simply made a mistake. He never apologizes to Harry for not doing
enough to protect his parents, for not averting Godric's Hollow. And
that is because DD DOESN'T regret what happened there - or any part he
may have played in ensuring that the attack occurred. Godric's Hollow
brought the greatest good to the greatest number in the Wizarding
World, and it is therefore a "good bad thing", a stroke of good
fortune, a desired outcome. THIS is why DD keeps changing the story of
the prophecy to Harry. THIS is why he is so insistent on defending
Snape's actions. Snape, either on orders or inadvertently, was doing
exactly what DD wanted. And DD's not sorry about it. Why should he be?
His choice guaranteed the greatest good for the greatest number.
Sacrifices must be made. 


lizzyben, who apologizes for yet another DD rant.