JKR's crying at the end of writing DH/ Double agent's death

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 171555

zgirnius:
> That is beside the point. The point is that, in contrast to what 
> Alla suggested in her post, a double agent is not necessarily OFH. 
> The definition is about the relationship between two sides and the 
> agent. Either or both sides may be *wrong* in what they believe of 
> the double agent, but the definition still describes the idea of 
> what a double agent is supposed to be.
<snip>

Dana:
It is not besides the point for the simple fact that becoming a 
double agent does not have to be directed by either organization but 
can be a decision a spy makes himself. In most cases even if a spy is 
loyal to one group it is not by definition that he wants to be 
revealed as a traitor to the other. In case where a group he is loyal 
to becomes a party that has potential to lose (which the prophecy 
predicted could be the case even against all odds), double agents 
will have the benefit of being known to the other party, providing 
them with a convenient cover in case something happens to the party 
they where initially loyal to. 

Snape brought the prophecy to LV and only turned spy for DD when LV 
chose to follow up on that said prophecy. For all we know Snape could 
have used his orders to get a place at Hogwarts to cover his butt in 
case the prophecy would turn out to have a negative effect on LV. 
Essentially it is what the prophecy predicted even in the part Snape 
is said to have overheard. That would mean that to keep believable 
even if loyal to the other side, Snape had to work both ways. And if 
he worked neither then he wasn't actually a double agent at all but 
just pretending to be one and the entire definition false flat.  

zgirnius:
> This is not the point of view of readers who believe Snape's 
> statements in Spinner's End. Snape states he was sent to Hogwarts 
> by Volemort (controlling organization) to spy on the target 
> (Dumbledore). He further states that Voldemort is happy Snape 
> stayed at that post, and that Voldemort is happy with the 
> intelligence he provides about Dumbledore. All of which indicates 
> Voldemort believes himself to be the controlling organization of 
> Snape, and Snape's target is Dumbledore. Wrongly, IMO, but my 
> opinion is not based on a definition, but on the evidence I see in 
> canon for DDM!.
<snip>

Dana:
Yes, it is the point of the reader because all you see is DD's side 
of the story and not LV's. DD tells us Snape turned spy for the 
Order, that he is no longer a DE. It is DD that asks Snape to return 
to LV and become a spy for the Order within LV's inner circle. It 
doesn't matter if Snape's loyalties are truly with LV or not. It is 
DD that from the reader's point of view, Snape should be working for. 
He is supposed to be pretending to still be a DE and therefore able 
to spy on LV for the Order. Snape himself mocks Sirius that he is 
working for the Order at great personal risk and so states DD in GoF. 
We never see Snape with LV so you have no way of knowing what Snape 
tells LV or visa versa. Therefore the reader's point of view is from 
the controlling organization as we are supposed to believe that Snape 
is working for DD. 

LV in the first war sent Snape to DD as a normal spy to infiltrate 
Hogwarts and take up a position there. That is not the same thing as 
a double agent. DD sends Snape back to LV to spy on him while LV is 
supposed to believe that Snape is actually trying to get close to DD 
(and DD is not suppossed to know Snape is send to him as a spy). That 
is what makes a double agent, double. It is only DD that uses Snape's 
double status as a DE. For Snape to infiltrate Hogwarts as a teacher 
and get a position there, his DE status is actually more damning then 
good. If DD truly knew Snape to be a DE and believed he still was 
loyal to LV then Snape would never be able to get in.  

After GoF, it is DD that asks Snape to go back to LV. It is not LV 
that orders Snape to go to DD. LV remains the original target in this 
operation. LV believing Snape to be loyal to him is irrelevant 
because LV knows Snape is ordered to spy on him and send to him by DD 
to pretend to still be a loyal DE as Snape explains to Bella and 
Narcissa in Spinner's End. And as the definition states the target 
knows the double agent is loyal to him. LV does not have to order 
Snape to do anything because Snape was send to him. 

It is actually much harder for Snape to pretend to work for LV then 
for DD because LV knows what Snape is supposed to do so if 
information leaks to DD that helps the Order to remain one step ahead 
of him then he doesn't have to look far, while on the other hand 
information on the Order can be leaked in several ways to various 
different channels. DD will not capture a person and torture 
information out of him or her but LV would. So DD is totally 
dependent on what Snape will or will not retrieve and as we see Snape 
never gives information that can be directed back to him. 

I have not based my opinion on the wikipedia definition either but I 
have seen various people romanticize the double agent status and use 
this definition to proof that Snape must be DDM but when you actually 
fill it in then Snape by this definition would be LVM. It is that 
simple. Does that mean that Snape is therefore LVM because the 
definition filled in, suggests so? No, it doesn't but I was not 
replying to proof Snape was LVM but just that I think people should 
first understand a definition before they use it to proof a point.   

zgirnius:
> At any rate, his being a double agent certainly does not preclude 
> his being OFH, DDM, ESE, or a combination.
<snip>

Dana:
It was not me that pulled in the definition. I just pointed out that 
if you apply the definition in the strictest sense then Snape would 
be LVM. And that a double agent can still be out for himself and 
himself alone. 

My opinion about Snape has to do with Snape and only Snape and I got 
enough indication from canon that whatever he is, he is not DDM. 

JMHO

Dana