New poll for HPforGrownups TBAY: Dumbledore is Ever So Evil!

[lizzyben04]

No: HPFGUIDX 171972

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "colwilrin" <colwilrin at ...> wrote:
>
> > lizzyben:
> <really big snip>
>  So yeah, however 
> > noble DD's ultimate goal might be, he is surely Ever So Evil from 
> > Harry's point of view. And mine, too. 
> > 
> > 
> > lizzyben
> >
> 
> Colwilrin:
> 
> I agree, but also disagree with your theory.  I think that there is 
> little that has happened in the past 6 books that was beyond DD's 
> manipulation.  IMO he is MM!DD (Master Manipulator DD).  However, I 
> don't see this as evil.  He has an agenda, for the greater good.  
> Though his actions may have caused pain to some, his underlying 
> intent is for the good of all.  

lizzyben:

Yes, I agree w/what you are saying about Manipulative!DD, but for me,
he shades into evil DD for a number of reasons. First, DD's
absolute conviction that his vision of the "greatest good for the
greatest number" justifies any means he might use to obtain that good,
and any people he might sacrifice, use or exploit to reach that goal.
That is a frightening philosophy, to me. Because once you identify
your own goals w/"good", and believe that good gives you the right to
hurt other people, there's really no limit to what you can do. After
all, Al-Queda thinks that they are working for the greater good of the
Muslim World, & that they can cause pain & suffering for this goal.
The IRA thought that their noble goals justified blowing up schools &
churches. The Nazis thought that they were working for the good of the
Fatherland. Even the Death Eaters think that they are inflicting harm
to further the "noble goal" of a Muggle-less world. Visions of a
greater good are NOT ENOUGH, and do not justify using evil tactics to
achieve that end. (I'm a moral absolutist. :)) But DD seems to
constantly justify the harm he causes because of his Plan, and that is
almost monstrous to me. He doesn't seem to have any check on his
actions, any internal moral compass that stops him from inflicting
harm if it serves his agenda. That is a recipe for tyranny & atrocity.

Colwilrin:
There is no element of "evil" to his 
> personality.  If it does turn out that he is "evil" I will literally 
> fall of the couch!  He reminds me more of what Spock from Star Trek 
> says- the good of the many outweigh the good of the one.  He is very 
> logical and calculating...I find it very hard to believe that all of 
> Harry's adventures could have occurred without his knowledge and 
> allowance.

lizzyben:

IMO there are indications of evil in DD's personality, as
well. I could have a grudging respect for a Manipulative!DD that is a
 sort of demi-god, forced to move the mere mortals around the
chessboard to save the wizarding world at large - a tragic figure,
kind of a "Heavy hangs the head that wears the crown" image. Except
that DD seems to so often *enjoy* having more information than
everyone else, enjoy feeling superior to everyone else ("brilliance,
genius", "superior brain power" etc), and most of all, how he seems to
enjoy using his great power against the powerless. It's the little
things DD does, more than the grand plans, which really nag at me.
It's how he oblivates Marietta, publically humiliates Snape with the
vulture hat, knocks the Dursleys in the head w/wine glasses. Because
He Can. The common theme in all of these is that DD is using his
magical or social power against a person w/o power. In all these
cases, the target of his actions is totally powerless to stop it. I
think he's a bully, someone who has always been a member of an
powerful elite & is almost unable to empathize w/the "common people"
at the bottom of the heap.

In contrast, we never see Snape using his magical power against
powerless people. IMO, he would consider that to be unfair. Snape,
unlike DD, knows what it's like to feel powerless or inferior, & is 
much more restrained in his use of magic against others. This is one
of the reasons I like Snape more than DD. And it's one of the reasons
I can't really see Snape as DD's Man. He's too different, & seems to
operate under a different code. 

Colwilrin:
> DD has surrounded Harry with the appropriate teachers, role models 
> and friends to foster his development and give him clues and unique 
> skills.  I think little was left to chance.  I don't think he went as 
> far as to assign R and Her to him as friends...but I also don't think 
> that it is meer coincidence that Harry ended up exposed to them early 
> on.

lizzyben:

Yeah, I agree that DD has orchestrated many events in order to train
Harry. But I do not believe that he has done this in order to help
Harry become a great wizard or a good man. All indications are that DD
intends for Harry to die for DD's cause. Harry is supposed to be
another sacrifice, like his parents before him. That's his appointed
role in The Plan. This is why DD seemed to pity Harry in OOTP, & why
he considers his love for Harry to be a fatal flaw in the plan. His
plan is evil for Harry, whatever good it's supposed to do otherwise.
Again, MM!DD might be thinking about the larger good & planning to
sacrifice Harry in order to save the wizarding world at large. But IMO
he becomes ESE!DD when he wants Harry to love him in spite of it. 


lizzyben, sending up a last, desperate hope for a good Snape.