DH Thoughts

[lupinlore]

No: HPFGUIDX 172631

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fitzchivalryhk" 
<fitzchivalryhk at ...> wrote:
>
<SNIP>
> 
> fitz:
> Actually, I partly agree with your interpretation on Snape /
> Dumbledore relationship, that it is multi-layered and not as
> loving as that of the one between Harry and Dumbledore. However,
> I do not think this can be reduced into a "simple negative" one
> as well. The evidence you and Leslie provided above shows that
> there is affection and caring between Snape and Dumbledore, as
> well as manipulation and calculation. Yet, is it that much
> different from the way Dumbledore treat Harry?  Remember,
> Dumbledore was not entirely sure if Harry will survive after
> he willingly let himself be killed by Voldemort, but he had
> no hesitation in pushing Harry to face Voldy. Does this mean
> Dumbledore has no love for Harry as well?


You are quite right that it is not entirely negative, and cannot be 
easily summed up that way.  Dumbledore as I have said felt pity and 
compassion for Snape, and respect.  But love?  No, I don't think so --
 at least as compared to his feelings for Harry.

Now, the interesting question, dealt with in another part of this 
thread, are what were his intentions for Snape?  As written, it 
doesn't seem they were very good -- i.e. he put Snape into a position 
where he would certainly be killed, as Voldemort would assume he was 
the master of the Elder Wand when in fact he was not.  Of course, the 
whole issue of wandlore and DD's intent (at one point it is said that 
DD wanted Snape to end up with the wand but a few pages later it is 
said that he didn't want Snape -- or anyone else -- to be Master of 
the wand, whether he possessed it or not) is terribly contorted.
> 
> Dumbledore is just a ruthless general. No matter how much he
> loves someone (even himself), he is still ready to sacrifice
> that person for "the greater good".
> 
> lupinlore:
> > Absolutely!  Snape's fate is satisfying and fits well with the
> > demands of moral and karmic justice. > 

> fitz:
> Delighting in the agony of others, and approval in the ruthless
> use of one human as a pig for slaughter, as long as they deserve
> it. 

Absolutely!  A large part (although not the whole) of justice is 
inflicting pain on people who deserve it.  And this is, I might add, 
something that JKR seems to approve of broadly.  Thus we have 
Marietta, who pays a richly deserved price for her treachery and 
whose comeuppance the heroes enjoy quite a bit.  And Amycus, 
recipient of a highly successful Crucio.  And Lucius Malfoy, whose 
schemes end in his own ruination.  And Dudley Dursley, recipient of a 
highly deserved and morally regenerative dementor attack.  And 
Grindlewald, imprisoned in his own fortress.  And Dumbledore, wracked 
by well-deserved doubt and guilt.  And Crabbe, incinerated in his own 
Fiendfire.  And Scrimgeour, who pays for his stupidity with his life.

Snape is certainly brave.  But much of his action, particularly his 
treatment of Harry, is I think nothing short of utterly contemptible. 
His end comes in the way he himself has prepared, and is richly 
deserved.  The criticism and tension he endures from Dumbledore is 
also richly deserved.  So yes, I delight in it and find it most 
satsifying, and make no apologies for that whatsover.

Of course, much pain is not deserved.  Fred and George and Remus and 
Tonks and Hedwig and Dobby and others suffer injustly.  Who deserves 
pain and who doesn't?  That is an irreducibly subjective judgement, 
and is why we have politics.  But I think it would be mealy mouthed 
and dishonest to claim that each of us don't have opinions about who 
deserves to be punished and who does not.  And it would be dishonest, 
I believe, to deny that one function of justice is to provide 
legitimate revenge and satisfaction by inflicting pain on those who 
have caused it.

At one time many posters claimed that a theme of the Potter series 
would be that justice is not a matter for Harry and his friends to 
give out by way of punishing the guilty.  Exactly who IS supposed to 
give out justice in the Potterverse is something I've never 
understood, but the arguments were there.  Well, that doesn't turn 
out to be the case.  The heros DO deal out "death and judgment" to 
use a Gandalfian turn of phrase, and their right to do so, and the 
justice of the pain they inflict, is rarely if ever questioned in the 
story.  Rather the attitude, by and large, is "Justice is Served."  
Whether that is the case with Snape, <shrug> ... as I say, that is 
why politics exists.


Lupinlore, who was also glad we didn't see any whining and gnashing 
of teeth over treacherous Marietta's dermatological problems