Re: Rowling’s Debunking of the Marauders

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 172788

leslie41: 
> I won't go into much further detail trying to defend Snape, as I've 
> already done that here, and I personally think the truth about 
> Snape is self-evident to anyone who isn't deluding themselves. DH 
> is out, folks, and trying to twist Snape into a bad guy, or 
> undermine his heroism, in the end will not wash with the text.  
<snip>
> Through Harry, Rowling vindicates Snape, and by the end of DH, we 
> see as well that Harry's grown up enough to understand what sort of 
> behavior should be truly valued: that which selflessly provides the 
> most good for all. There is no "Sirius Remus Potter." In one way or 
> another, all of the Marauders turn out to be grave 
> disappointments.  Say what you like about the idea that Snape only 
> does what he does for Lily—goodness, he might say that himself!  
> However, unlike Remus Lupin (who much of the time utters words that 
> belie his actions), Snape's actions belie his words, and the most 
> arresting of those actions is that (at great risk) he chooses to 
> save not only Lupin, but spends much of DH (and also HBP) 
> attempting to keep people that have never even met Lily away from 
> harm.  


Dana:
Although I have no problem to admit that I was wrong on many expects 
about Snape (mainly that he did not betray DD and did kill him on his 
orders), one thing I was not wrong about was Snape's 
characterization. He was driven by his emotions and you might clarify 
them as love but I would classify them as bitterness and hatred 
caused by intense sorrow. Snape's actions in the shack for instance 
where out of revenge and he did want to have Sirius soul sucked. Not 
because of a schoolboy grudge as I thought but because he wanted to 
make Sirius pay for Lily's death. He did not want to listen to reason 
because he wanted his revenge so badly that he did not want to be 
proven wrong about Sirius. Personally I never stated Snape was LVM as 
I had seen evidence in canon that he was not but I did feel that 
Snape was capable of doing evil deeds if it served his cause. 

I do have to say that I understand your euphoric feeling about Snape 
not being ever-so-evil but to me the text is not so clear that no 
other interpretation of said text is possible. So therefore I share 
mine and respect that you will probably disagree. 

Snape is not selfless in what he did. He did not do it for Harry. He 
never grown to care for Harry and he truly hated Harry as he was a 
constant reminder that Lily was never his because she chose James 
Potter. His treatment of Neville was personal because if LV had 
chosen him instead of Harry then Lily would have been alive. 

Snape not wanting Phineas to use the term mudblood is not because 
Snape had a change of heart about the phrase in classifying people 
like that but because the phrase was a personal reminder of why he 
lost his friendship to Lily. This memory was still very much alive in 
him as he even stopped occlumency lessons because of it. Snape risked 
his life not for the cause or for Harry but to keep Lily's memory and 
sacrifice alive. 

He tried to safe Lupin but you also have to remember that it was 
because of Snape that Lupin was in danger in the first place. Snape 
not wanting to be responsible for anymore deaths because of what he 
had to do to keep Lily's sacrifice from being in vain is not a clear 
sign that he developed a sense of empathy or respect for people's 
life. He was still more then willing to betray them if it was needed. 
Snape was still more then capable to compartmentalize any urge to 
safe a human being from LV's clutches to keep his cover. 
He still let kids at Hogwarts get hurt to keep his cover even if he 
himself did not hurt those kids. Maybe you hadn't noticed but the RoR 
was pretty full with kids trying to get away. He did not protect 
Neville who was pretty beat up. So Snape's protection was relative. 
DD did not alow Umbridge to mishandle a student but Snape clearly 
does as long as students don't get killed. 

Snape protesting that DD was setting Harry up to be killed was not 
because he cared for Harry but because he felt betrayed that all his 
efforts, to keep Lily's sacrifice alive, was all for nothing and he 
still gave Harry the memory in which DD tells this to Snape. So in a 
sense he still brought the pig to the slaughter house as Snape did 
not know that Harry was going to survive. He probably thought that 
Harry facing LV would cause LV's downfall in some way. Snape did not 
know anything about the horcruxes. He was only told that in order to 
defeat LV Harry needed to die and he was willing to sacrifice Harry 
for it. So his last act before he died was actually to give his 
loyalty to Lily meaning and to use Harry to take the ultimate revenge 
on the man who killed the one he loved. 

Also DD never trusted Snape completely. He just trusted Snape would 
not do anything that would harm Lily's sacrifice and therefore not 
harm Harry and thus DD's cause but he certainly would not give Snape 
more information then he absolutely needed to know. Maybe if you 
remember the argument in the forest. Snape is saying that he might 
not be willing to do anything anymore if DD does not show him more 
trust. DD plays Snape like a violin because DD already knows that 
Snape had made a vow with Narcissa and therefore could not back out 
of the plan unless he wanted to die himself (again I was wrong eating 
humble pie as I type this) but essentially it doesn't change anything 
because DD was dying anyway and so if Snape still wanted to stay 
loyal to Lily then he needed to follow through.  

JKR did not vindicate Snape through Harry in the sense that Snape was 
truly a good man at heart. His redeeming quality was his extreme 
loyalty to Harry's mother not to Harry himself. Snape's bravery was 
directed by this same loyalty. Harry forgave Snape because of the 
extreme loyalty he showed to Harry's mother and what he was willing 
to do for her. I have to confess that naming his kid after Snape is 
slightly creepy as Snape pretty much did everything to make Harry's 
live uncomfortable and he surely truly was not sorry that James 
Potter died but apparently Harry found it enough to give him a 
tribute for what he did in service of his mother. 

JMHO

Dana

PS: I just want to suggest to you when you accuse people of being 
bias against Snape when they reflect the marauders vs Snape that you 
should not do the same yourself. And although not canon I'm pretty 
sure that James second name is Sirius and Teddy already carried Remus 
as a second name. Also I did not see Snape showing up in the scene 
where Harry calls upon his loved ones to help him go through with his 
sacrifice, I did see Sirius and Lupin.