Slytherins as jews WAS: Re: DH as Christian Allegory/I am about to rant

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 173551

> Alla:
> 
> You know, it is not the first time I read the argument that people 
> see Slytherins cast in the part of persecuted Jews and they see the 
> symbolism with jews from eastern Europe.
> 
> And of course I cannot argue with anybody's right to see that 
> symbolysm, intentional or not.
> 
> But this jew from eastern Europe, who as I mentioned several times 
> seen enough antisemitism in my life, is so scratching her head 
every 
> time this argument comes out.
> 
> I mean, whether I personally like Slytherins or not, I should be 
> able to see those parallels at least on intellectual level, right?
> 
> I mean, do not get me wrong, the fact that I do not see them, does 
> not mean that other people cannot, but just on purely intellectual 
> level I am trying to figure out why this so falls flat.
> 
> Why I do not see Slytherins as **any** sort of metaphor for jews, 
> but the contrary one - those who persecute.

Magpie:
As has been said a number of times, we're not saying the Slytherins 
are metaphors for Jews. We're saying that they are a group who is 
the "other" in this universe, and along with persecuting others 
themselves they have a lot of qualities that generally make them bad, 
and many of the things chosen to make them bad are similar to certain 
Jewish stereotypes (not actual Jews, but negative stereotypes). 

The point isn't that Rowling is saying anything about Jews, or making 
Slytherins Jews. It's that this character (whether or not it's 
actually Jewish) has appealed to people for a long time, and some of 
us have some problems with it in itself. That's not to say that there 
couldn't be plenty of anti-Semitic people who *would* look at those 
traits and make that connection. These particular hateful stereotypes 
are still all too prevelent in the world.

Alla: 
> Well, the first reason should be obvious for me, I guess. That word 
> **mudblood**. Um, as I mentioned several times in the past, this 
> word works for me as very direct metaphor for the most despicable, 
> most antisemitic nickname that every jew from former Soviet Union 
> encountered at least once and maybe much more in their life.

Magpie:
Yes, that's the correlation to Jews I said was explicit in the text. 
The Muggle-borns are supposed to be like Jews with the Slytherins 
being anti-Semitic Nazis. And the Muggle-borns are like "real" Jews 
in that everything that's being said about them is untrue--they're 
not liars, they're not stealing from wizards, they're just like all 
other wizards. If one were to look at Nazi propaganda about Jews--or 
historical negative presentations of Jews--this is where you'd find 
some of the same hints of badness. I noticed the similarity back in 
Book V and I still see it. Rowling for some reason has a need for a 
group like that in her book.

Alla:> 
> **Slytherins** are the ones who use that word, NOT anybody else, 
> therefore the symbolism is that they ARE who persecute, not those 
> who are persecuted. It how it is works for me, I am sure any other 
> jew from eastern europe or any part of the world, can see it 
> completely differently.

Magpie:
Yes, I realize that. I'm not confused about how the Nazi metaphors 
are supposed to line up in that part. What Sydney brought up was a 
totally different connection to anti-Semitism that she assumed was 
unconscious but was working in tandem with this one.

Alla: 
> I also agree with you that symbolism of seeing muggleborns as 
> persecuted minority IS quite intentional, probably this is also why 
> I cannot wrap my mind around to see it backwards - somehow see 
those 
> who persecute Muggleborns as being prejudiced against.

Magpie:
This isn't about Slytherins being prejudiced against. That they can't 
be is part of the point. What they can do is on the one hand be Nazis 
and on the other hand borrow a lot of qualities from anti-Semitic 
historical depictions of Jews. It's perfectly easy to take the same 
villainous character that was once called "the jew" and simply remove 
the label and the ethnicity and add other qualities. As much as 
the "Mudblood" line reminded you of what it did (and me too) other 
things reminded me of other familiar scenarios. After all, although 
the Slytherins were often like Nazis they weren't literally Nazis--
they were shifting things, whatever was needed to be the opposite of 
the good guys. 

Alla: 
> Because **to me** it is not prejudice, it is evil, real chilling 
> evil and I just cannot see bigotry in anti Slytherin attitude.
> 
> I see good people standing up against Evil.

Magpie:
If you mean that you don't see people hating the Slytherins as 
prejudice because they're evil, I agree. That's the point. I think 
they are being presented as the Evil that the good people are 
standing up against. (Or at best they can't ever be as good.) It's 
not prejudice, because they really are as bad as they are said to be. 
That's not a good thing for me.

I also don't have a problem with the kids being Sorted at the age 
they are, since it seems like the Sorting just "shows who you are,"  
as Dumbledore would say, and always will be. Choosing the easy, 
corrupt path at 11 means you'd have chosen it at 40 too, I'd guess. 
It seems like it might even just be decided before you're born--it's 
predestination. 

Alla: 
> The funniest argument fot Slytherin as persecuted jews symbolism to 
> me is of course Snape's hooked nose. Um, why?
> 
> I have blue eyes, blond hair and all my family does and we are all 
> very very jewish. On the other hand, there are people with hooked 
> noses, who are jews and NOT jews, had never been jews, you know?

Magpie:
Because that's traditionally been a symbol of a Jew in Western 
tradition. It's got nothing to do with what actual Jews look like, 
it's the charicature. Thought I don't think that alone would have 
made anyone make the connection. It's Snape in this whole context 
that makes it seem more possible.

Alla:
 
> Oh, oh another thing that falls flat for me is the power thing. I 
> see for example Malfoys as being one of the most powerful families 
> in WW - like every door is opens towards them and for Jews in 
> Eastern europe, well that is really really not true in general, was 
> not true at least ten years ago.

Mgapie:
Yes, that's what I said about the stereotypes being updated. If we 
were really talking about Jewish characters in medieval lit or 
something, of course they couldn't be aristocrats. but Rowling isn't 
trying to depict the Slytherins according to things that are true 
about Jews or the way Jews were presented historically. In Rowling's 
world aristocracy is bad, so the Slytherins are that too. As I said, 
this isn't an accusation of Rowling being anti-Semitic or saying 
*anything* about real Jews. It's saying that she created a group of 
people and othered them like a mad thing, and validated that 
othering. She wanted somebody playing the kind of role that Jews 
might have played if this were a medieval story (it does feel like 
one to me often). I realize that other people never thought this at 
all, and I'm not saying everybody should, but to me this was part of 
the experience reading it. That she needed somebody filling that 
role, not that she was being anti-Semitic. 

Alla:
> As I also mentioned before, I had to fight tooth and nail, reall 
> with tears and sweat to get in to college I wanted and I always 
> **almost** got in.
> 
> Malfoys can go to any school they want ( Durmstrang, Hogwarts), I 
am 
> guessing to take any job they want, so this parallels as 
> **persecuted minority** falls for me again.

Magpie:
Because you're trying to make it a parallel to real Jews, and it 
isn't. It's a parallel to an "Other" stereotype--one that seems to 
borrow a little more heavily from the Jewish version than one of the 
other versions out there (though as someone else said, underneath 
they're all similar). You can have a stereotype that "those people" 
get anything they want and hold all the power secretly even while the 
real people you're talking about are oppressed and discriminated 
against. You can assume all of "those people" are greedy and have 
piles of gold even if they're really struggling. (Certainly real Jews 
have also been hated for allegedly holding themselves above others.) 
In Rowling's universe, of course, we're not talking about real people 
but her characters, and her characters really are controlling things 
behind the scenes with their money and Dark Arts.  Um, yay?

Alla:
> I mean, what is wrong with ambition, I will never know, but having 
> said all that, I will **never** be able to see the symbolism that 
> Slytherins are being prejudiced against. Fighting against evil is 
> not prejudice in my mind.

Magpie:
I know some people are saying that, but I am not. I'm saying that 
Rowling has created characters who are *rightly* prejudiced against--
well, really it's not so much prejudice since it's true. Our heroes 
not wrong for fighting against the bad that is Slytherin. Harry's 
instinctual repulsion was right. But I'm uncomfortable with creating 
that situation even when it's only fictional people.

Ceridwen:
Instead, we get, "Old Greaseball died, so I can safely say he was
brave without having to mea culpa to him."

Magpie:
Yup. And I can rest easy knowing the family of Evil are now in my 
holy debt after they totally proved they didn't deserve it in any way.

Anders:
For the theme of the book, I think Jo used those in Slytherin to show 
that we all have freedom of choice in our actions regardless of our 
innate qualities. It's not who we are born that matters, - even if we 
are born with Death Eaters as parents, or have the Slytherin 
qualities which give us perhaps more potential for bad choices than 
the other houses, we aren't locked into pursuing a dark path.

Magpie:
Yes, and the choice of "I want to be in Slytherin" is one of the most 
important. Sirius came from bad parents who might as well have been 
Death Eaters, but he was rejecting that choice already when he got on 
the train. He was never a Slytherin, and never made choices like a 
Slytherin.

-m