Slytherins as jews WAS: Re: DH as Christian Allegory/I am about to rant

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 173553

> Magpie:
> As has been said a number of times, we're not saying the 
Slytherins 
> are metaphors for Jews. We're saying that they are a group who is 
> the "other" in this universe, and along with persecuting others 
> themselves they have a lot of qualities that generally make them 
bad, 
> and many of the things chosen to make them bad are similar to 
certain 
> Jewish stereotypes (not actual Jews, but negative stereotypes). 
<SNIP>

Alla:

Right, I totally got the part that you or Sydney or anybody else are 
not accusing Rowling of being antisemitic or anything like that. It 
is the part that Slytherins are reflecting the certain Jewish 
stereotypes I am disagreeing with. I mean not even disagreeing - I 
just do not **see** them


 
> Magpie:
> Yes, I realize that. I'm not confused about how the Nazi metaphors 
> are supposed to line up in that part. What Sydney brought up was a 
> totally different connection to anti-Semitism that she assumed was 
> unconscious but was working in tandem with this one.


Alla:

Yes again, I am just saying that this **unconscious connection** is 
not working for me and I tried to explain why and want to figure out 
where Cydney, you or anybody else see it. Just on intellectual level.



 
>> Magpie:
> This isn't about Slytherins being prejudiced against. That they 
can't 
> be is part of the point. What they can do is on the one hand be 
Nazis 
> and on the other hand borrow a lot of qualities from anti-Semitic 
> historical depictions of Jews. It's perfectly easy to take the 
same 
> villainous character that was once called "the jew" and simply 
remove 
> the label and the ethnicity and add other qualities. As much as 
> the "Mudblood" line reminded you of what it did (and me too) other 
> things reminded me of other familiar scenarios. After all, 
although 
> the Slytherins were often like Nazis they weren't literally Nazis--
> they were shifting things, whatever was needed to be the opposite 
of 
> the good guys. 


Alla:

Here, I guess I misunderstood in part. I totally keep hearing that 
Slytherins are being prejudiced again and this is how bigotry works 
from this thread in general.

But no, I see Slytherins as close to Natzis, as possibly could be. I 
mean, they are not real, obviously, but Muggle born registration 
commission gives me very real metaphors.

So, I guess it all boils down to this - what antisemitic stereotypes 
you see depicted in Slytherins besides Snape hooked nose?

I mean, I think I also misunderstood something else - I thought 
Sydney was making a point that not only Slytherins are being 
portrayed as antiJewish stereotypes, BUT what Potterverse heroes 
**do** to them can be seen as what was done to Jews. If I imagined 
that part of the argument, sorry about that, because that I am 
having even bigger problems seeing than Slytherins being 
stereotypically portrayed.


Mgapie:
Yes, that's what I said about the stereotypes being updated. If we
were really talking about Jewish characters in medieval lit or
something, of course they couldn't be aristocrats. but Rowling isn't
trying to depict the Slytherins according to things that are true
about Jews or the way Jews were presented historically. In Rowling's
world aristocracy is bad, so the Slytherins are that too. As I said,
this isn't an accusation of Rowling being anti-Semitic or saying
*anything* about real Jews. It's saying that she created a group of
people and othered them like a mad thing, and validated that
othering. She wanted somebody playing the kind of role that Jews
might have played if this were a medieval story (it does feel like
one to me often). I realize that other people never thought this at
all, and I'm not saying everybody should, but to me this was part of
the experience reading it. That she needed somebody filling that
role, not that she was being anti-Semitic.

Alla:

Yes, again I get that this is not the accusation of Rowling being 
antisemitic, I do. I guess I do not see the problem of depicting 
*Evil* as other, you know? True evil, I mean, not people who are 
really not. Wait, wait I think I got it, my another problem, I mean.

You are saying that you are thinking that in her story Slytherins 
are playing same role as stereotypical Jews could have been playing 
in the medieval story, yes?

I suppose the reason why I am not seeing the **parallels** is 
because to me as a person it is clear now that the role that those 
jews characters, steretypical or not were supposed to portray was 
incorrect, you know?

Does it make sense or am I totally confused you?

Like despite the assertions that it is so, Jews were not eating 
christian babies for dinner and all that crap, Slytherins on the 
hand **ARE** doing everything they had been accused of. Slytherins 
DE I mean, but it seems that Slytherins and DE are pretty much the 
same, no? That part I do find unfortunate, but it is different from 
your POV, no?

Like if you are saying that you are seeing stereotypes in 
Slytherins, my question is how they can be stereotypes if 
stereotypes are usually do not come true? Or am I totally confused 
myself?

colebiancardi:

Of course, I can see both Magpie's & Alla's sides here. I think that
in JKR's world, the biases against Jews and the evil of the Nazis got
merged into one.
<SNIP>

Alla:

Aha, now I am beginning to at least understand this POV but not 
quite :).

colebiancardi:
So, back to Harry Potter's WW - Slytherins, physically, appear like
the classic stereotype of Jews. They are also untrustworthy to the
other Houses. Slytherins also take on the Nazi credo of pure-blood
mania and the intent to suppress and even wipe out those that are
muggleborn or muggles.

Alla:

Right, the question about classic stereotype of jews remains for me.

But surely yes about Nazi credo of pureblood mania.

colebiancardi:
<SNIP>
What was disappointing to me in the aftermath of the WW war, there 
was
no Vatican II. We still see Slytherin as being stereotyped as *evil*
and bad. We do not see the reconciliation between these worlds as
aggressively as we did after WWII.

Alla:

Right, I like what SSSusan wrote, I think some small steps are 
happening, but more agressive steps could be nice too.

JMO,

Alla