[HPforGrownups] On Children and the

[Bart Lidofsky]

No: HPFGUIDX 169610

lizzyben04:
>> See, this is where I disagree, & this is my fundamental problem with
>> the series. Under a real system of laws, EVERYONE is entitled to
>> fairness, respect, rights and tolerance. Everyone is protected by
>> those laws, and they should be applied equally and without
>> prejudice. That's the fundamental basis of our democracy, and our
>> Constitution. "All men are created equal, all endowed with the right
>> to life, liberty & happiness..."

>Kemper now:
>That's not true, but it should be.  EVERYONE is not entitled to _______ .
>Each group of persons has to fight for that right of entitlement.
>
>You quote from the US Declaration of Independence.  White, male land
>(and slave) owners had to fight for their right to be independent of
>the British monarchy.

Bart:
First of all, remember that Great Britain is NOT the United States. Even Canada still has a "Divine Right" based government, as opposed to the U.S.'s "Social Contract" style government (although American officials have a tendency to forget this once they're in the government). The point being that the Harry Potter novels take place in Great Britain, and there appears to be a British-style government. 

Kemper:
>White men did not wake up one morning and think, "You know whose vote
>is missing and very much needed in today's elections?  Women."  Women
>had to fight for that right.  It was not freely given.

Bart:
Actually, in the United States, many states recognized the right of women to vote long before the U.S. Constitution was amended to recongize it.  

Kemper:
>Employers/bosses did not wake up one morning and think, "You know who
>has been working long hours for little pay?  Labor.  From now on, I'm
>going to pay them time and half if they work over say 40 hours a week.
> The 80 they have been working is way too much.  I should give them 2
>days off a week as well."  Labor had to fight for the Fair Labor
>Standards

Bart:
No, they didn't. They had to fight to be able to get monopolistic pricing for labor. The system is quite unfair to the individuals involved, but has a greater viability for the economy as a whole (while a free market is ideal, as with all anarchic systems, it quickly deteriorates into feudalism). 

Kemper:
>Emancipation was not freedom.  The US Civil Rights movement existed
>because blacks, though free, were treated inhumanely and with
>disregard.  Whites did not wake up one morning thinking, "You know
>who's missing from my child's school?  Black kids."  Blacks had to
>fight for the rights whites' had.  It was not given freely, or easily.

Bart:
Actually, the rights of blacks were officially recognized. The problem was that they were not recognized on an unofficial level. In other words, the problem was not so much in the laws, but in the lack of enforcement of the existing laws. There has been much written about this, but let's just take a look at canon. Giants are expected to be stupid. Therefore, giants are not educated. Therefore, giants are stupid. Look at how far Hagrid got with Grawp in only a year or so, and that was taking an adult giant, who grew up in savagery (how do you think a human being would be, raised in the culture like that of the giants?). Several of the non-human races we have seen have shown themselves to have a level of intelligence indistinguishable from human (although their psychology may differ), yet they are put down. For example, even house elves, who have an apparent psychological need to serve humans, appear to have a desire to CHOOSE which humans they serve, a right they are denied. 

Kemper:
>The Elves need to initiate the fight for their rights to live without
>ties to a wizard.

Bart:
But they're psychologically incapable of doing it. As I pointed out, the problem is not that Hermione tried to fight for their rights; it's that she tried to fight for the WRONG rights. 

Bart