[HPforGrownups] On Children and the

[Kemper]

No: HPFGUIDX 169657

> lizzyben04:
> >> See, this is where I disagree, & this is my fundamental problem with
> >> the series. Under a real system of laws, EVERYONE is entitled to
> >> fairness, respect, rights and tolerance. Everyone is protected by
> >> those laws, and they should be applied equally and without
> >> prejudice. That's the fundamental basis of our democracy, and our
> >> Constitution. "All men are created equal, all endowed with the right
> >> to life, liberty & happiness..."
>
> >Kemper earlier:
> >That's not true, but it should be. EVERYONE is not entitled to _______ .
> >Each group of persons has to fight for that right of entitlement.
> >
> >You quote from the US Declaration of Independence. White, male land
> >(and slave) owners had to fight for their right to be independent of
> >the British monarchy.
>
> Bart:
> First of all, remember that Great Britain is NOT the United States. Even Canada still has a "Divine Right" based government, as opposed to the U.S.'s "Social Contract" style government (although American officials have a tendency to forget this once they're in the government). The point being that the Harry Potter novels take place in Great Britain, and there appears to be a British-style government.

Kemper now:
I did not forget.  Remember how I wrote '/US/ Declaration of Independence'?

I agree with Gavin that we aren't given enough info on what type of
government the Ministry of Magic adheres to.


>
> Kemper:
> >White men did not wake up one morning and think, "You know whose vote
> >is missing and very much needed in today's elections? Women." Women
> >had to fight for that right. It was not freely given.
>
> Bart:
> Actually, in the United States, many states recognized the right of women to vote long before the U.S. Constitution was amended to recongize it.

Kemper now:
This is true.   Sort of.    In 1909, a total of three
states/territories allowed women suffrage.  Three is not many, it's
few.
By 1914, 'long before' the Nineteenth Amendment's ratification in
1920, nine states and a territory have granted suffrage; five of which
were since 1912.
In 1917, two years before ratification begins, 8 other states have
granted some form of suffrage.  That's 17 states and a territory.  A
fair amount.  But many?

So, are you saying that those 18 states went on their own to grant
suffrage without any women fighting for it?  Because that is what you
seem to imply.

Women fought political oppression.  Similarly, I see, that Goblins
fought Wizard oppression.

>
> Kemper earlier:
> >Employers/bosses did not wake up one morning and think, "You know who
> >has been working long hours for little pay? Labor. From now on, I'm
> >going to pay them time and half if they work over say 40 hours a week.
> > The 80 they have been working is way too much. I should give them 2
> >days off a week as well." Labor had to fight for the Fair Labor
> >Standards
>
> Bart:
> No, they didn't. They had to fight to be able to get monopolistic pricing for labor. The system is quite unfair to the individuals involved, but has a greater viability for the economy as a whole (while a free market is ideal, as with all anarchic systems, it quickly deteriorates into feudalism).

Kemper now:
Slavery has better benefit for the economy, but it, too, is quite
unfair to the individuals involved.  Unless, to touch on what you
later mention, the individual is a house elf; psychologically
incapable of needing/wanting anything more in life.

If elves were paid a livable wage, how would that effect the Hogwarts' economy?


> Kemper earlier:
> >Emancipation was not freedom. The US Civil Rights movement existed
> >because blacks, though free, were treated inhumanely and with
> >disregard. Whites did not wake up one morning thinking, "You know
> >who's missing from my child's school? Black kids." Blacks had to
> >fight for the rights whites' had. It was not given freely, or easily.
>
> Bart:
> Actually, the rights of blacks were officially recognized. The problem was that they were not recognized on an unofficial level. In other words, the problem was not so much in the laws, but in the lack of enforcement of the existing laws.

Kemper now:
Again, emancipation was not freedom.  It was not the lack of
enforcement of the law, it was the blatant disregard of the law.  So
what did blacks have to do?  Fight for their civil rights.


> Bart:
> There has been much written about this, but let's just take a look at canon. Giants are expected to be stupid. Therefore, giants are not educated. Therefore, giants are stupid. Look at how far Hagrid got with Grawp in only a year or so, and that was taking an adult giant, who grew up in savagery. ...

Kemper now:
I don't think that's quite right.  Giants are expected to be violent.
Trolls are expected to be stupid.

With regards to education, Giants do not seem accustom to holding that
institution in any esteem. It is not a Wizard's place to impose an
educational system upon a different culture.


> >Kemper:
> >The Elves need to initiate the fight for their rights to live without
> >ties to a wizard.
>
> Bart:
> But they're psychologically incapable of doing it. As I pointed out, the problem is > not that Hermione tried to fight for their rights; it's that she tried to fight for the WRONG rights.

Kemper now:
It seems as though we are arguing on the same side of this issue...
but I could be wrong.  What are the 'wrong' rights she tried to fight
for?  And what would the 'right' rights be?

Kemper