Ludo Bagman / Dementors (Was: Re: Divination and Questions from the GoF Pensieve

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 169694

CMC:
>  
> > Then why didn't Harry recognize him? In GoF it's frequently 
implied that Bagman is well past his prime as an athlete. For all his
ineptitude, the unnamed blonde DE from HBP does not seem to be
physically decrepit.
> 
> Goddlefrood:
<snip> 
> Harry had one fleeting glimpse of the blond Death Eater during the
lark at Hogwarts. He had not seen Bagman for more than a year. Bagman
had not notably been on the wizarding scene and may well have regained
some of his former sporting prowess (lost his pot belly, in other
words). His hair would have grown, possibly as part of a disguise from
the Goblins <snip>.
> 
> This may be thought rather thin, but then so is a view that Harry
must surely have recognised Bagman had he been the blond Death Eater.
> 
> It should also be borne in mind that, not only was any view Harry
had of the blond Death Eater fleeting, but also that Harry at the
relevant time was in torch lit corridors and the darkened grounds
(where he only saw the behind of blondy) and was rather preoccupied
with a certain Severus Snape rather than on figuring out who all the
others involved were.
> 
> There are at least two wholly unremarked upon Death Eaters involved
in the jamboree and brutal-face is no more than that.
> 
> It'll take a good deal more than the above to make me alter my 
view, fwiw. <snip>
> 
Carol responds:

I'm not trying to get you to alter your view, but I do agree with CMC
that Harry would have recognized Ludo, even an altered Ludo, just as
he recognized the much younger Ludo in the Pensieve scene before his
name was given GoF Am. ed. 591). And Harry isn't the only one who
would have recognized Ludo Bagman and mentioned something about it.
Ron and Ginny, who are in the hospital wing with Harrry, also saw the
blond DE firing off curses everywhere. Both of them were at the QWC
with Harry when Ludo and Mr. Crouch were talking to Mr. Weasley, not
to mention that they were in the box when he was announcing the game
and at Hogwarts during the various events that he either announced or
attended. It seems unlikely to me that none of the three would
recognize either his face or his voice. (Even the preoccupied Harry
knew that the DE was blond, so he must not have been hooded, as Ludo
surely would have been for fear of being recognized.) McGonagall, too,
was at Hogwarts every time that Ludo was there and probably knew him
well enough to recognize him, having taught him for seven years some
twenty-five or so years before. And unlike Harry, ot one of them was
preoccupied with Severus Snape.they were all paying plenty of
attention to Blondie, whose very ineptitude made him dangerous.

And yet not one of them mentions the possibility that he might be Ludo
Bagman. Ron mentions "that massive Death Eater ... firing off jinxes
all over the place." Ginny speaks of "that huge Death Eater's jinx
just miss[ing her]." Then Lupin (who probably know who Bagman is from
the Daily Prophet, but doesn't have quite as much reason to recognize
him as the others, says that "the big Death Eater fired off a hex that
caused half the ceiling to fall in." (HBP am. ed. 620-21). Considering
the attention that he received, you'd think that one of those people
would have recognized him if he were the famous Ludo Bagman, whom Ron,
at least, knows passed information to the DEs because Harry told him
about the Pensieve excursion in GoF. Also, I don't recall Ludo being
described as "massive" or "huge,"either when he was in his prime as a
Beater (he'd have been too big to fit on a broom) or after he'd "gone
to seed" and his robes were too tight (but he could still fit into
them). Also I would think, though I'm just thinking of probabilities,
that he'd most likely *lose* weight hiding from the goblins rather
than gaining it.

At any rate, my view is that the big blond DE is probably Goyle Sr.,
who, unlike his companion Crabbe Sr. wasn't at the MoM (unless JKR
inadvertently left him out when Lucius pairs everyone off, OoP Am. ed.
788) and who is described, along with Crabbe, as one of "the two
largest hooded figures." And given how large his son already is, I'd
guess that "huge" and "massive" would probably apply to Goyle Sr.

I'm not so sure about your hypothesized missing DEs (though you could
be right). Why didn't they get any attention at all from Ron and Lupin
and the others? Maybe JKR just lost count, just as she had Scrimgeour
(who would know the difference if anyone would) refer to the Petrified
Brutal-Face (Yaxley?) as "Stunned." (I'm sure we'll read about any DEs
who were arrested since they'll probably be testifying about Snape
killing DD on the tower, and they'll probably reveal the names of
their escaped companions. Strange, BTW, that one of the DEs must have
addressed the now-dead Gibbon by name. Why him and not the others?)

So I'm not ruling out your hypotheses, just explaining why I disagree
with them.

And, BTW, CMC, I'm not sure I'd describe a "gone to seed" Ludo Bagman
as "decrepit." <grin> I'm guessing he's about 40, with a beer belly
like many men of that age but still active, just not fit enough to
play professional Quidditch. "Decrepit" suggests that he's ready for
the old folks home. Even Dumbledore at 150 isn't "decrepit."
Otherwise, of course, I agree with you about Ludo Bagman probably not
being the big blond DE.

CMC:
> 
> > In Snape's first DADA class, he has on display several
banner-sized photos, one of which is a dementor victim, in an inert
zombie-like condition.
> 
> Goddlefrood:
> 
> A picture of a victim that was seen momentarily does not a case
make. If the above is taken on its face then maybe, rather than
becoming a Dementor the victim becomes an Inferi, does that seem possible?

Carol: That's an interesting (if horrific) hypothesis, but according
to Snape, an Inferius is "a corpse that has been reanimated by a Dark
wizard's spells. It is not alive; it is merely used like a puppet to
do the wizard's bidding" (HBP am. ed. 400), rather than being the
result of a soul-sucking by a Dementor. (In the first lesson mentioned
by CMC, he mentions the Dementor's kiss immediately before he mentions
Inferi but doesn't connect the two except as forms of Dark magic that
the students need to watch out for, 178). So since Barty Jr. is not,
so far as we know, a corpse, but is simply soulless and empty, I'd say
that he's more likely to be in a special ward in St. Mungo's than
floating face down in Voldemort's cave (or wherever he keeps the rest
of his Inferi--almost said "zombies" as I don't see any difference.).
> 
Goddlefrood:
> I'll go a little into how I think Dementors came about now. I have
formed the view that originally they were created by some witch or
wizard for the purpose of intimidation of others. If that is near
enough the case than it certainly worked as most of the opinions
expressed regarding Dementors in canon are that they are disturbing
beings and were the ideal guards of the wizarding prison.
> 
> There is no indication so far that they can talk so it should also
be wondered how they communicate with witches and wizards. There must
be some communication for them to be able to have agreed to guard
Azkaban and for their having later agreed to join Lord Voldemort. I
could not say for sure if we will find out about this matter, but it
is interesting to speculate on it nevertheless.

Carol:
Clearly, they do communicate with wizards. We don't see it happen, but
Fudge seems to be talking to the one that accompanies him in GoF (and
ends sucking out Barty's soul), and my impression was that it was
talking to him in return. Certainly, there's no question that they can
understand what a wizard is saying; otherwise, it would be impossible
for the Ministry to contro them or for Voldemort to offer them any
incentive to change sides.

But they don't seem to be soul-sucked people; their scabby hands look
more dead than alive; they have no eyes and their mouth is used not to
eat but to suck out happiness and souls. They don't walk, they glide.
It's not clear whether they have feet. 

They're not included in FBAWTFT, which probably means that, unlike
Lethifolds, Ghouls, and Trolls, they're not classified as beasts. That
leaves either spirits (like Banshees and Ghosts) or beings (like
Giants, and possibly Inferi). I'd say that spirits seems more likely,
and yet, they seem solid. 

As for breeding, it's to be hoped that the male and female Dementors
don't get together and make little Dementorlings. I doubt that they're
divided into sexes, anyway. Fudge says that the mist means that the
Dementors are breeding (14), which suggests a less physical process. I
think they grow out of human depression and widespread sorrow, which
they then spread around (a bit counterproductive if they're looking
for happiness to feed on!). JKR says that they symbolize depression
and the loss of hope.

http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2000/1000-globereview-martin.html

Anyway, I don't know if we'll ever be told exactly what Dementors are
or how they communicate, but I don't think they're people who've lost
their souls. Most victims of Dementors die from losing their
happiness, I would think, like the prisoners who went mad and died in
Azkaban. I doubt there are many victims who actually lose their souls,
even Azkaban prisoners. (Obviously, the ten who escaped from Azkaban
after Sirius Black didn't, nor did Black himself despite a very close
call.) 

Carol, who expects to hear about more Dementor victims actually losing
their souls now that the Dementors are outside Ministry control (and
with that horrible thought, retreats from this thread!)